When we’re faced with conflict, pain, controversy, subjugation, or discrimination for no reason except we are who we are, then we stand up and oppose the oppressive wave. That doesn’t by default make us a role model. That makes us a fighter.

Peter is not saying here that he is not a fighter. If I understand his post correctly, he is simply lamenting the fact history has failed miserably at recording the stories of successful fighters of prior times. He wants to know the names and faces and stories of those fighters. He wants to empower and inspire himself with their narratives. He wants to know what they did right, so he can do it, too. He wants to know what they did wrong, so he can improve on it. He is saying after diligent and earnest research, he himself could not find these narratives. He wants to know if any of us have heard of any and could share. I’m not clear how he is at fault for asking these questions.

When we’re faced with conflict, pain, controversy, subjugation, or discrimination for no reason except we are who we are, then we stand up and oppose the oppressive wave. That doesn’t by default make us a role model. That makes us a fighter.

Peter is not saying here that he is not a fighter. If I understand his post correctly, he is simply lamenting the fact history has failed miserably at recording the stories of successful fighters of prior times. He wants to know the names and faces and stories of those fighters. He wants to empower and inspire himself with their narratives. He wants to know what they did right, so he can do it, too. He wants to know what they did wrong, so he can improve on it. He is saying after diligent and earnest research, he himself could not find these narratives. He wants to know if any of us have heard of any and could share. I’m not clear how he is at fault for asking these questions.

though my problem is that i have no desire to form an exclusive asian-american community. i’m tired of being caught up in that inclusivity/exclusivity dyad — the HEY WE ARE DISSATISFIED, LET’S JUST FORM OUR OWN COMMUNITY! ethos. i went through all of that while coming of age in detroit’s rave scene, where all the kids who felt different, who felt ostracized, who came from broken homes and broken hopes, were able to come together and create a space where they could be together freely. in the end it was an amazing thing, but simply living inside that bubble didn’t really change anything in mainstream culture. it just locked our perceptions into an us-vs-them attitude toward living.

i know what you accomplished in SF&LA wasn’t easy and it’s awesome that you did it, really fucking cool, but what i’m looking for is some deeper level of integration. also, i DO like white men. i have fortunately never felt hostility from asians who like asians, and i’ve never felt the need to be hostile to them. i guess i’m lucky in that respect.
i’m not sure what you mean by saying it’s my own fault for not having an asian role model made available to me — the implication here being that you can only blame the individual, and not mass media and sociality more generally. i think you pinpointed part of the problem, actually.

white america gets by on pointing the finger at institutions whenever things go wrong. it’s part of what (predominantly, but not just) white America has come to be known for — everyone is always freaking out about how the FDA has failed or the educational institution has failed or this/that bureacratic entity has failed. asians on the other hand tend to isolate the problem to individuals. i feel that’s counterproductive.

i don’t think there’s anything wrong with me expressing a desire for greater asian american representation in the media. i don’t think it’s wrong to expect a more egalitarian mass media machine. i don’t think it’s wrong to want a strong empathetic masculine father figure on t.v. in the place of the hundreds of white Dan Connors

frankly (and you pushed a button here) i don’t understand why anyone would say not having an available role model / icon in the public sphere is my fault, considering how terribly underrepresented we are in popular entertainment. does that absolve sociality in the way that we know it from any responsibility? i mean, of course i am something of my own role model. i felt that went without saying. i’m a fucking ivy league grad student for crying out loud. i rejected a crazy violent immigrant upbringing and family disownment so i could study what i love — which is clearly not math, science, medicine, finance. i’ve only ever met one other asian person remotely interested in continental philosophy, aesthetics, critical theory, and that person felt as rare as i did. yes, i’d like to form an asian-americans for the humanities! student group. but there are established channels i have to go through before i can really exert influence within the academy — namely, i’m not yet in a doctoral program. i’m working on it, it’s not like i’m sitting on my ass twiddling my thumbs. that has nothing to do with whether the forms of attachment that are widely available to the mainstream world are rightfully available to us; i’m doing the best with where i am at the moment. which is thankfully NOT in front of a friggin Calc III textbook, as my culture would have it.

if we don’t recognize what is missing for individuals, if we are constantly saying to individuals who actually raise their voices — HEY! IT’S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT! — we’re just ignoring the fact that there is a problem in a more general social sense.

on a side note, have you been publishing these accounts of asian queer community building in the 90s? has it been documented anywhere? if i were an enthnographer i’d definitely try to help you compile some sort of historical record, if only because that helps to spread the word, and let’s the new wave of kids like me know that yes, something cool actually happened, even if it was momentary and isolated someplace ten thousand miles from here. my main question being: where is your legacy now?

though my problem is that i have no desire to form an exclusive asian-american community. i’m tired of being caught up in that inclusivity/exclusivity dyad — the HEY WE ARE DISSATISFIED, LET’S JUST FORM OUR OWN COMMUNITY! ethos. i went through all of that while coming of age in detroit’s rave scene, where all the kids who felt different, who felt ostracized, who came from broken homes and broken hopes, were able to come together and create a space where they could be together freely. in the end it was an amazing thing, but simply living inside that bubble didn’t really change anything in mainstream culture. it just locked our perceptions into an us-vs-them attitude toward living.

i know what you accomplished in SF&LA wasn’t easy and it’s awesome that you did it, really fucking cool, but what i’m looking for is some deeper level of integration. also, i DO like white men. i have fortunately never felt hostility from asians who like asians, and i’ve never felt the need to be hostile to them. i guess i’m lucky in that respect.
i’m not sure what you mean by saying it’s my own fault for not having an asian role model made available to me — the implication here being that you can only blame the individual, and not mass media and sociality more generally. i think you pinpointed part of the problem, actually.

white america gets by on pointing the finger at institutions whenever things go wrong. it’s part of what (predominantly, but not just) white America has come to be known for — everyone is always freaking out about how the FDA has failed or the educational institution has failed or this/that bureacratic entity has failed. asians on the other hand tend to isolate the problem to individuals. i feel that’s counterproductive.

i don’t think there’s anything wrong with me expressing a desire for greater asian american representation in the media. i don’t think it’s wrong to expect a more egalitarian mass media machine. i don’t think it’s wrong to want a strong empathetic masculine father figure on t.v. in the place of the hundreds of white Dan Connors

frankly (and you pushed a button here) i don’t understand why anyone would say not having an available role model / icon in the public sphere is my fault, considering how terribly underrepresented we are in popular entertainment. does that absolve sociality in the way that we know it from any responsibility? i mean, of course i am something of my own role model. i felt that went without saying. i’m a fucking ivy league grad student for crying out loud. i rejected a crazy violent immigrant upbringing and family disownment so i could study what i love — which is clearly not math, science, medicine, finance. i’ve only ever met one other asian person remotely interested in continental philosophy, aesthetics, critical theory, and that person felt as rare as i did. yes, i’d like to form an asian-americans for the humanities! student group. but there are established channels i have to go through before i can really exert influence within the academy — namely, i’m not yet in a doctoral program. i’m working on it, it’s not like i’m sitting on my ass twiddling my thumbs. that has nothing to do with whether the forms of attachment that are widely available to the mainstream world are rightfully available to us; i’m doing the best with where i am at the moment. which is thankfully NOT in front of a friggin Calc III textbook, as my culture would have it.

if we don’t recognize what is missing for individuals, if we are constantly saying to individuals who actually raise their voices — HEY! IT’S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT! — we’re just ignoring the fact that there is a problem in a more general social sense.

on a side note, have you been publishing these accounts of asian queer community building in the 90s? has it been documented anywhere? if i were an enthnographer i’d definitely try to help you compile some sort of historical record, if only because that helps to spread the word, and let’s the new wave of kids like me know that yes, something cool actually happened, even if it was momentary and isolated someplace ten thousand miles from here. my main question being: where is your legacy now?

I’m going to have to preface this (if only because this is what you’re trained to do) by having a lot of caveats. I came out in the early-mid 90s, during the height of the AIDS epidemic. When I was in your situation, we had no role models, mainly because either a) they were dead from AIDS, or b) they were so unpalatable because of their misogyny, racism, classism, etc., that we wanted no part of the old guard of queer Asian men’s groups.

Thanks to the internet, and also because of our ability to create networks because of this, a group of us queer Asians (both men and women) formed a communty in SF and LA in the mid90s, to much disdain and criticism from queer white folks, and other queer Asian men, primarily because a) we weren’t into white men, and b) we weren’t going to replicate all the -isms that affected the community then. This was a golden opportunity for us.

As a result, those of us in LA and SF created this incredible vibrant community online, but also in real time, having incredible house parties, social groups, and night clubs. Talk to a queer Asian in his or her late 20s or early 30s in SF or LA and mention Jaded, and most of them will have a wistful look in their eyes. We were able to build a strong community that thumbed our nose at the racist queer white community, our homophobic Asian community, and build a strong network of friends that for the most part, still connects us today.

To boil this down to its bare essence, really, if you want to find a role model, and you can’t find one—be one.

Be the role model that you want to see. Be the person that people want to emulate. Make those connections. No one’s going to make them for you, especially since so many of us are too damn scared to come out of the closet, and too damn scared of speaking up for ourselves. If you don’t do it, then frankly, it’s your own damn fault.

After my partner and I got married back in 2004 in SF, one of maybe 4 Asian-Asian male couples that did get married, we suddenly became the role models for the queer Asian men’s community in SF, which frankly speaks of how sad the community is. Too many of us are scared, and not enough of us have the balls to act. My partner and I do not feel that we should be role models, but because no one else is willing to speak up, those who do speak up end up having this mantle of responsibility, which is too great for any one person (or even a couple).

Peter, I may sound like a bitter old queen, but really, I’m calling you out. If you’re gonna sit there and bitch about how you can’t find a role model–frankly, it’s your own damn fault.

I’m going to have to preface this (if only because this is what you’re trained to do) by having a lot of caveats. I came out in the early-mid 90s, during the height of the AIDS epidemic. When I was in your situation, we had no role models, mainly because either a) they were dead from AIDS, or b) they were so unpalatable because of their misogyny, racism, classism, etc., that we wanted no part of the old guard of queer Asian men’s groups.

Thanks to the internet, and also because of our ability to create networks because of this, a group of us queer Asians (both men and women) formed a communty in SF and LA in the mid90s, to much disdain and criticism from queer white folks, and other queer Asian men, primarily because a) we weren’t into white men, and b) we weren’t going to replicate all the -isms that affected the community then. This was a golden opportunity for us.

As a result, those of us in LA and SF created this incredible vibrant community online, but also in real time, having incredible house parties, social groups, and night clubs. Talk to a queer Asian in his or her late 20s or early 30s in SF or LA and mention Jaded, and most of them will have a wistful look in their eyes. We were able to build a strong community that thumbed our nose at the racist queer white community, our homophobic Asian community, and build a strong network of friends that for the most part, still connects us today.

To boil this down to its bare essence, really, if you want to find a role model, and you can’t find one—be one.

Be the role model that you want to see. Be the person that people want to emulate. Make those connections. No one’s going to make them for you, especially since so many of us are too damn scared to come out of the closet, and too damn scared of speaking up for ourselves. If you don’t do it, then frankly, it’s your own damn fault.

After my partner and I got married back in 2004 in SF, one of maybe 4 Asian-Asian male couples that did get married, we suddenly became the role models for the queer Asian men’s community in SF, which frankly speaks of how sad the community is. Too many of us are scared, and not enough of us have the balls to act. My partner and I do not feel that we should be role models, but because no one else is willing to speak up, those who do speak up end up having this mantle of responsibility, which is too great for any one person (or even a couple).

Peter, I may sound like a bitter old queen, but really, I’m calling you out. If you’re gonna sit there and bitch about how you can’t find a role model–frankly, it’s your own damn fault.

http://forum.wgbh.org/content/forum/2080-2006_02_02.mp3

http://forum.wgbh.org/content/forum/2080-2006_02_02.mp3