Excited
As you may or may not know, Min Jung Kim is a former blogger on 8Asians. She recently wrote a blog entry on Blogher.com regarding “Bi-racial Couples – A first person account.”
Given 8Asians’s recent postings on: “Why Asian Guys Can’t Get White Girls,” “Why Asian Girls Go For White Guys: A Response,” “Why Asian Girls Go For White Guys” , as well as a recent posting by Niniane Wang on her blog “Why do so many white guys have Asian festishes??” as well her older (and kind of ironic) post, “Why I Don’t Date Asian Men,” I thought MJ’s personal first person account was a breath of fresh air on the topic of inter-racial dating. Yes, MJ is marrying a “white guy”, but more importantly, someone she loves.
How does this post make you feel?
- Fascinated
- Amused
- Bored
- Sad
- Angry
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Observer
As an Asian-American Male myself, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the fact that more Asian Males are increasingly starting relationships with White Females. The number of Asian Male-White Female couples that people see on the street are increasing as time goes by as Asian Males increasingly develop the self-confidence, character traits, charisma, and other qualities in men that women value to be a steady provider and someone skilled enough with people to keep a long-term relationship going, to start relationships with White Females. And also the numbers of Asian Male-White Female couples will gradually increase as White Females find out that yes, many Asian men are interested in them and White Females in turn become unafraid to take the initiative and show their interest in Asian Men and/or to return the interest shown by Asian Men in them.
The number of Asian Males starting relationships with White Females and females of other races will only increase as more and more Asian Males develop the bravery and courage to overcome their previous fears and get the guts to just go for it and ask women of other races out on dates whether they succeed or fail at first. And it will also increase as enough Asian Males develop enough adaptability skills to figure out the reason why they failed if they did not succeed at first in getting a date with a women of another race and so then change themselves so that they grow as people and improve themselves so that they take a different approach so that they succeed the next time, and as they develop enough persistency to keep on trying even if they do not initially succeed at first.
As more and more Asian Males ask White Women and women of other races out on dates, more and more Asian Men will succeed in dating them and more and more Asian Men and White Women and women of other races will see this, and the numbers of couples will build up critical mass and more and more Asian Males and Women of Other Races will do the same thing and it will have a rolling snowball effect. More and more Asian Males will succeed in starting relationships with women of other races, and the numbers of Asian Male-Females of Other Races couples will only increase as time goes by. As the ancient Chinese used to say, sometimes you just have to u00e2u0080u009cjump into the open oceanu00e2u0080u009d. And as the old Western sayings go, u00e2u0080u009cNo guts, no gloryu00e2u0080u009d, and u00e2u0080u009cFortune favors the brave.u00e2u0080u009d
I do think however, that Asian Men should not mind if White Men or other races of men increasingly start relationships with Asian Women, even if there are an extremely large number of such relationships and women of other races donu00e2u0080u0099t reciprocate as readily at first. You can still start relationships with other races of women, you just have to overcome greater odds in order to do so. But let us always keep peace with one another no matter what happens. I believe that this should be true even if this causes many Asian Women to reject Asian Men and to look down on them and to put them down as unworthy of them also. That will never be true for Asian Men and Asian Women and for Asian Men and any other race of women also, or for any woman individually. I do not think that if this happens and Asian Women start making fun of Asian Men, that Asian Men should lower themselves to respond to and fight back against Asian Women who stoop down to that level to do such a thing, because all it means is that if there are no more Asian Women who will start relationships with Asian Men, that Asian Men will have to start relationships with women of other races instead of Asian Women. It may be harder to do such a thing, and Asian Men may have to adjust themselves as people and grow and improve themselves as people in order to do such a thing and you may have to take yourself out of your comfort zone, but, as the increasing number of Asian Man-Women of other Races couples prove, it is possible.
I also do not think that Asian Men should mind White Men and men of other races starting relationships with Asian Women also because for Asian Men who believe in interracial relationships with Asian Men and Women of Other Races, it would be hypocritical for them to be against Asian Female-Men of Other Races relationships. It would be a double-standard and would be forbidding others to do what Asian Men want themselves, youu00e2u0080u0099re supposed to treat others the way you want to be treated in life, and so because it is wrong for Asian Men who are for Asian Man-Women of Other Races relationships to be against Asian Woman-Men of Other Races couples, I do not think that Asian Men should be against it at all. And I think that the Asian Men who are against such a thing and who are so are just stressing themselves out over something that they should not mind at all.
Plus, you could look at the bright side and think of it this way, with so many men of other races starting so many relationships with Asian Women, it causes women of other races to think of Asian Men as possible future partners for themselves also, as likewise, many men of their own race have found Asian Women to be compatible partners with them as well. And Asian Women-Men of Other Races couples cause women of other races to start think of starting future relationships with Asian Men and cause them to realize that an Asian partner might make a compatible future mate for them as well. In fact, many White Men even know that this effect occurs, and so they try to stop other races of men from starting relationships with Asian Women so that they can prevent Asian Men from starting relationships with other races of women. So, by being against Asian Women and Men of Other Races couples, you are just taking away other peopleu00e2u0080u0099s freedom of choice which you should respect, being racist yourself, being a hypocrite and practicing, especially if you are for Asian Men starting relationships with Women of Other Races, playing into other peopleu00e2u0080u0099s hands who are completely racist against you without you even realizing it, and just being self-destructive.
And also, if Asian Men prefer other races of Women besides White Women, then they should feel free to start relationships with other races of Women as well, such as Black Women, Latina Women, Native American Women, or non-East Asian Asian Women. Many East Asian Men tell stories on the Internet that say that it is easier to start a relationship with a Black Women or a Latina Women than it is to start a relationship with a White Women, and deep down underneath it all, we are all equal, and are all attractive blessed races with something good to offer to the others, and to benefit others, with none being without worth or value, and it is a personu00e2u0080u0099s own choice after all, and that right should be respected.
Although if an Asian Male prefers only White Females, and of course, if a White Female prefers only Asian Males, then it is their choice, and they both should have the freedom to choose to do whatever they want and they should both have their choices be respected without other people interfering in it.
Interracial dating makes no boundaries when it to comes to love and search for a lifetime partner. Yes, it could be a different story from one another but still it's the heart that talks for two different individuals.
Interracial dating makes no boundaries when it to comes to love and search for a lifetime partner. Yes, it could be a different story from one another but still it's the heart that talks for two different individuals.
Kenny, I think that you are correct that the fabric of Asian America is deeply damaged and often confused. I do not have any issue with bi-racial unions of any kind as long as it's based on genuine love for another human being. My issue is that the whole subject of white male/Asian female unions has become so much of a non-issue that any real issues that arise from cross ethnic unions are overlooked. For instance, when Asian women express their love of the "more masculine" caucasian, they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. What happens, one wonders, when such women marry their "more masculine" caucasian husbands and give birth to "not so masculine" half Asian boys? How can they raise psychologically healthy, confident sons who are able to prosper and succeed in a culture that is so deeply demeaning towards them,when their underlying attitude to Asian men seems to be so negative? Again, I have no problem with cross racial unions, but is the Asian community so empowered and respected in this society that we can aproach this subject with such a flighty attitude? I don't think we are. East Asians (male and female) are written about, spoken about and portrayed in this (western) culture in very demeaning and hostile ways. Much of what we see, read and hear about our community is negative and my feeling is that if you (as an Asian) have nothing good to say about your community or the people in it then don't say anything. I'm not saying that we should put up with abuse or injustice from our own, but change doesn't come from without. Running away to white culture doesn't solve the issues within ourselves or our communities, it passes them along to our offspring. So, date, marry and love outside your race but don't do it because you can find nothing good about your own culture and just wish you could be something else.
Kenny, I think that you are correct that the fabric of Asian America is deeply damaged and often confused. I do not have any issue with bi-racial unions of any kind as long as it's based on genuine love for another human being. My issue is that the whole subject of white male/Asian female unions has become so much of a non-issue that any real issues that arise from cross ethnic unions are overlooked. For instance, when Asian women express their love of the "more masculine" caucasian, they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. What happens, one wonders, when such women marry their "more masculine" caucasian husbands and give birth to "not so masculine" half Asian boys? How can they raise psychologically healthy, confident sons who are able to prosper and succeed in a culture that is so deeply demeaning towards them,when their underlying attitude to Asian men seems to be so negative? Again, I have no problem with cross racial unions, but is the Asian community so empowered and respected in this society that we can aproach this subject with such a flighty attitude? I don't think we are. East Asians (male and female) are written about, spoken about and portrayed in this (western) culture in very demeaning and hostile ways. Much of what we see, read and hear about our community is negative and my feeling is that if you (as an Asian) have nothing good to say about your community or the people in it then don't say anything. I'm not saying that we should put up with abuse or injustice from our own, but change doesn't come from without. Running away to white culture doesn't solve the issues within ourselves or our communities, it passes them along to our offspring. So, date, marry and love outside your race but don't do it because you can find nothing good about your own culture and just wish you could be something else.
I believe the reason why this subject needs to be addressed is because it's destroying the fabric of Asian America in the first place, Chook. The best way to rot a community is from the inside and that's exactly what's happening. We won't make any progress in any other respect until Asian men and women can come together.
At this rate, I don't see that happening at all.
I believe the reason why this subject needs to be addressed is because it's destroying the fabric of Asian America in the first place, Chook. The best way to rot a community is from the inside and that's exactly what's happening. We won't make any progress in any other respect until Asian men and women can come together.
At this rate, I don't see that happening at all.
I found this article quite refreshing in it's approach to this subject, mainly because it took a humanistic approach instead of the usual Asian Man Bashing Approach. All too often this subject is presented as an issue facing Asian Americans but I am left to wonder what exactly these "issues" are. Laws against inter-racial relations have often been at the heart of discrimination against minorities, perhaps even the driving force of institutionalised racism. So when I read or watch certain Asian women offering opinions about how they'd never date Asians because......(fill in the blank) and would only date white men, then I can't help but feel that they are disconnected from the struggles that brought they and their community to the point where it's legal to say these things. My issue is not that they have this preference (I have been happily married to a Caucasian women for many years) but that they are so blase and flighty about it. What in my mind should be a subject for discussion with close, trusted friends suddenly becomes an "issue" of the entire community where everybody now knows and are often embarrassed to hear about sexual preferences of someone they don't know. My point is that there was a time -in my lifetime 30 -40 years ago - where if I were to walk down the street with my white wife I could have been thrown in jail, attacked, beaten and possibly murdered. If I were black I could have been lynched just for looking at a white woman. Within the last 2 years a young Mexican American boy in Texas was beaten and raped with a broomstick for flirting with a white girl. The "issue" is and always has been serious to the point that individuals have had to fight and die for the right to fall in love with whomsoever they choose. My wife and I recently had dinner with an old school friend of hers and his Asian American wife during which we were informed by her how she only dated an was attracted to white men. Both my wife and I were surprised at how candid she was about it. Yet we both felt that it was a little uncouth to discuss this subject with people you are not really close to. Please feel free to have your preferences but don't turn it into an "issue" of the community. It isn't. In many ways it's irresponsible. Throughout SE Asia there are thousands of young girls (and boys) some as young as 6 or 7 who are put into the sex industry to help support their extremely poor families. The demand amongst European and North American pedophiles for this young Asian flesh is what drives the supply of these children. So, the next time you hear an Asian girl whose comfortable and possibly priveleged life allows her to be uncouth in this matter, just remeber that there may be a pedophile in your town who's planning a trip to Thailand to have sex with a 6 year old prostitute who will read what you have to say and think "maybe the Asian children I'm raping enjoy it since Asian women prefer white men". If I have been harsh I don't apologize. We have a responsibility as free and priveleged citizens to help others of our race to rise above poverty, oppression and discrimination. If all we can talk about is "I only date white men because......" then we need to work on our collective conscience and show ourselves to be disconnected from the realities of Asian life.
I found this article quite refreshing in it's approach to this subject, mainly because it took a humanistic approach instead of the usual Asian Man Bashing Approach. All too often this subject is presented as an issue facing Asian Americans but I am left to wonder what exactly these "issues" are. Laws against inter-racial relations have often been at the heart of discrimination against minorities, perhaps even the driving force of institutionalised racism. So when I read or watch certain Asian women offering opinions about how they'd never date Asians because......(fill in the blank) and would only date white men, then I can't help but feel that they are disconnected from the struggles that brought they and their community to the point where it's legal to say these things. My issue is not that they have this preference (I have been happily married to a Caucasian women for many years) but that they are so blase and flighty about it. What in my mind should be a subject for discussion with close, trusted friends suddenly becomes an "issue" of the entire community where everybody now knows and are often embarrassed to hear about sexual preferences of someone they don't know. My point is that there was a time -in my lifetime 30 -40 years ago - where if I were to walk down the street with my white wife I could have been thrown in jail, attacked, beaten and possibly murdered. If I were black I could have been lynched just for looking at a white woman. Within the last 2 years a young Mexican American boy in Texas was beaten and raped with a broomstick for flirting with a white girl. The "issue" is and always has been serious to the point that individuals have had to fight and die for the right to fall in love with whomsoever they choose. My wife and I recently had dinner with an old school friend of hers and his Asian American wife during which we were informed by her how she only dated an was attracted to white men. Both my wife and I were surprised at how candid she was about it. Yet we both felt that it was a little uncouth to discuss this subject with people you are not really close to. Please feel free to have your preferences but don't turn it into an "issue" of the community. It isn't. In many ways it's irresponsible. Throughout SE Asia there are thousands of young girls (and boys) some as young as 6 or 7 who are put into the sex industry to help support their extremely poor families. The demand amongst European and North American pedophiles for this young Asian flesh is what drives the supply of these children. So, the next time you hear an Asian girl whose comfortable and possibly priveleged life allows her to be uncouth in this matter, just remeber that there may be a pedophile in your town who's planning a trip to Thailand to have sex with a 6 year old prostitute who will read what you have to say and think "maybe the Asian children I'm raping enjoy it since Asian women prefer white men". If I have been harsh I don't apologize. We have a responsibility as free and priveleged citizens to help others of our race to rise above poverty, oppression and discrimination. If all we can talk about is "I only date white men because......" then we need to work on our collective conscience and show ourselves to be disconnected from the realities of Asian life.
Yes, while that statement was a bit bold, I believe it could have been better phrased to the area of "men and women of a particular race are expected to be with each other." It's really odd that ultra-liberal Asians would say otherwise and embrace colorblindness that fervently where we should view the world with colorblind lenses.
While they don't own each other and therefore don't necessarily "belong" to each other like items to be traded, the idea that no one belongs to a racial demographic and is inherently colorblind is, well, stupid.
On paper, it seems good to be colorblind, gender blind, religion blind, or sexual orientation blind. However, it contains a key word in there: blind. It means you can't see. I'd rather see everything and make a decision based on all available information.
Additionally, I don't oppose interracial dating and marriage by a long shot. What I do oppose is the extent to the sheer volume and frequency it is happening in the Asian American female community. 1 in every 3 Asian females is involved with a white partner. Yes, I'm going to stop using the PC term "interracial marriage" because statistics have proven that it's white, not non-Asian men.
I'm sure everyone knows the basic concept of Yin-Yang and the fundamental drive to achieve balance in the world. When you have imbalance, chaos reigns and that's exactly what's happening to the Asian community. When do all social revolutions happen? When the gap between rich and poor grows As interracial dating and marriage among Asian women climbs, expect this gender conflict to continue far into the future and into later generations but hey, who cares? Live for ourselves, I guess.
We have enough divisions and hostility in the Asian community and this is just one more situation we don't need.
We have intra-Asian conflict, immigrant and native conflict, political conflict, class conflict, and of course, gender conflict. I'm surprised that the Asian American community hasn't killed itself off by now and I believe that the only reason Asian America is able to grow in the first place is because of massive amounts of immigration.
Also, I just wanted to add the point that in your other thread "Why Asian girls go for white guys: A Response," you pointed out that since Asian men don't ask you and your sisters out, you're forced to pick from a pool that will, white men. This causes you to inadvertently support the idea that Asian women only want to date white men when Asian men see you. What about what happens when white men see this pairing? Do you think that since white men see this pairing often, they'll just brush it off as just another happy couple? Or do you think they believe Asian men are indeed inferior which is causing Asian women to flee? Do you believe it helps contribute to the asexual Asian man? Hell, other races and genders are starting to notice it and question why the outflux of Asian women is so high. While Asian women might be individually thinking that it's perfectly fine, let's all take a step back and see what happens in a bigger picture.
Again, I believe people can do whatever they want but when you throw a rock into a pond, be prepared to examine the ripples.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the interracial dating and marriage percentage of Asian women was 80%? Should be still embrace it or should we view it as hindering the community?
Yes, while that statement was a bit bold, I believe it could have been better phrased to the area of "men and women of a particular race are expected to be with each other." It's really odd that ultra-liberal Asians would say otherwise and embrace colorblindness that fervently where we should view the world with colorblind lenses.
While they don't own each other and therefore don't necessarily "belong" to each other like items to be traded, the idea that no one belongs to a racial demographic and is inherently colorblind is, well, stupid.
On paper, it seems good to be colorblind, gender blind, religion blind, or sexual orientation blind. However, it contains a key word in there: blind. It means you can't see. I'd rather see everything and make a decision based on all available information.
Additionally, I don't oppose interracial dating and marriage by a long shot. What I do oppose is the extent to the sheer volume and frequency it is happening in the Asian American female community. 1 in every 3 Asian females is involved with a white partner. Yes, I'm going to stop using the PC term "interracial marriage" because statistics have proven that it's white, not non-Asian men.
I'm sure everyone knows the basic concept of Yin-Yang and the fundamental drive to achieve balance in the world. When you have imbalance, chaos reigns and that's exactly what's happening to the Asian community. When do all social revolutions happen? When the gap between rich and poor grows As interracial dating and marriage among Asian women climbs, expect this gender conflict to continue far into the future and into later generations but hey, who cares? Live for ourselves, I guess.
We have enough divisions and hostility in the Asian community and this is just one more situation we don't need.
We have intra-Asian conflict, immigrant and native conflict, political conflict, class conflict, and of course, gender conflict. I'm surprised that the Asian American community hasn't killed itself off by now and I believe that the only reason Asian America is able to grow in the first place is because of massive amounts of immigration.
Also, I just wanted to add the point that in your other thread "Why Asian girls go for white guys: A Response," you pointed out that since Asian men don't ask you and your sisters out, you're forced to pick from a pool that will, white men. This causes you to inadvertently support the idea that Asian women only want to date white men when Asian men see you. What about what happens when white men see this pairing? Do you think that since white men see this pairing often, they'll just brush it off as just another happy couple? Or do you think they believe Asian men are indeed inferior which is causing Asian women to flee? Do you believe it helps contribute to the asexual Asian man? Hell, other races and genders are starting to notice it and question why the outflux of Asian women is so high. While Asian women might be individually thinking that it's perfectly fine, let's all take a step back and see what happens in a bigger picture.
Again, I believe people can do whatever they want but when you throw a rock into a pond, be prepared to examine the ripples.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the interracial dating and marriage percentage of Asian women was 80%? Should be still embrace it or should we view it as hindering the community?
To reveal some of my personal ideologies--- public policy wise, I'm fervently pro-choice; but in my own private sphere, due to my conservative upbringing, my political and religious views, I'm fervently pro-life. Are you saying I can't advocate pro-choice policy even though I am personally pro-life?
I take no issue at all with an Asian American who is a zealous activist in his or her ethnic community but happens to be married to a white American. Frankly, I don't even see how the two are related. That activist is still practicing what he or she preaches -- social justice for all, and in this case, fighting primarily for the Asian community. We tread on dangerous grounds when we allow the day's dominating mainstream politics to dictate other people's private lives.
Rob, to answer your question: the impression that particular activist will give is one of hypocrite, but that is NOT because that activist *is* a hypocrite, no. It is because society tends to be closed-minded and stupid. Why would that Asian activist date Asian instead of non-Asian *just* to prove a point?
I understand that all you're trying to do is urge caution, but I think what sparked this storm of responses is how you worded it. "Asian men belong to Asian women and vice versa"? Lordy, that's the quickest way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I agree with what you said, to a milder degree, or at least I can empathize with the spirit of the argument. So what is your proposal for change if you were Dictator of the World? Ban absolutely all interracial marriage? Require of those who wish to marry outside their race to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that they're marrying for the "right" reasons, "right" being defined by you, and not the "wrong" ones, "wrong" again also being defined by you? I'm sure these would make splendid laws...
To reveal some of my personal ideologies--- public policy wise, I'm fervently pro-choice; but in my own private sphere, due to my conservative upbringing, my political and religious views, I'm fervently pro-life. Are you saying I can't advocate pro-choice policy even though I am personally pro-life?
I take no issue at all with an Asian American who is a zealous activist in his or her ethnic community but happens to be married to a white American. Frankly, I don't even see how the two are related. That activist is still practicing what he or she preaches -- social justice for all, and in this case, fighting primarily for the Asian community. We tread on dangerous grounds when we allow the day's dominating mainstream politics to dictate other people's private lives.
Rob, to answer your question: the impression that particular activist will give is one of hypocrite, but that is NOT because that activist *is* a hypocrite, no. It is because society tends to be closed-minded and stupid. Why would that Asian activist date Asian instead of non-Asian *just* to prove a point?
I understand that all you're trying to do is urge caution, but I think what sparked this storm of responses is how you worded it. "Asian men belong to Asian women and vice versa"? Lordy, that's the quickest way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I agree with what you said, to a milder degree, or at least I can empathize with the spirit of the argument. So what is your proposal for change if you were Dictator of the World? Ban absolutely all interracial marriage? Require of those who wish to marry outside their race to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that they're marrying for the "right" reasons, "right" being defined by you, and not the "wrong" ones, "wrong" again also being defined by you? I'm sure these would make splendid laws...
Look, while I understand that "individual rights are paramount" mantra, I am just attempting to urge caution on what the ramifications are. My point that's constantly being ignored is what type of image this is sending American society as a whole. Again, I believe that the huge outmarriage and outdating rate for Asian women being so high is a good contributor of Asian male emasculation in this country. Is that deniable?
Also, I would like to hear your opinion, Akrypti, what kind of impression it might give to Asian America to preach about Asian men but be dating someone who isn't Asian? I'm not attacking your dating partner or have any intention to but rather just to inquire how it might be viewed by others, Asian or non-Asian.
Look, while I understand that "individual rights are paramount" mantra, I am just attempting to urge caution on what the ramifications are. My point that's constantly being ignored is what type of image this is sending American society as a whole. Again, I believe that the huge outmarriage and outdating rate for Asian women being so high is a good contributor of Asian male emasculation in this country. Is that deniable?
Also, I would like to hear your opinion, Akrypti, what kind of impression it might give to Asian America to preach about Asian men but be dating someone who isn't Asian? I'm not attacking your dating partner or have any intention to but rather just to inquire how it might be viewed by others, Asian or non-Asian.
Damn, my prior comment didn't post...
Damn, my prior comment didn't post...
FYI - Bill Gates' speech at Harvard is quite good in regards to wh
William H. Gates III at Harvard Commencement
Harvard Commencement
June 7, 2007
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/06.14/99-...
"I learned a lot here at Harvard about new ideas in economics and politics. I got great exposure to the advances being made in the sciences. But humanityu00e2u0080u0099s greatest advances are not in its discoveries u00e2u0080u0093 but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity. Whether through democracy, strong public education, quality health care, or broad economic opportunity u00e2u0080u0093 reducing inequity is the highest human achievement. "
FYI - Bill Gates' speech at Harvard is quite good in regards to wh
William H. Gates III at Harvard Commencement
Harvard Commencement
June 7, 2007
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/06.14/99-...
"I learned a lot here at Harvard about new ideas in economics and politics. I got great exposure to the advances being made in the sciences. But humanityu00e2u0080u0099s greatest advances are not in its discoveries u00e2u0080u0093 but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity. Whether through democracy, strong public education, quality health care, or broad economic opportunity u00e2u0080u0093 reducing inequity is the highest human achievement. "
Trying again... glad I saved it on notepad...
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Rob:
That's great that J found someone with her required set of attributes, one of which was motivated by a sense of social justice. I hope it works out for them. But most importantly, I hope they are in love.
I'm skeptical of shopping for a partner with a particular set of attributes. Why? Finding a suitable partner is not like shopping for the perfect set of shoes or the perfect ingredients to make the perfect paella. Making a checklist and then following it by the book will not create chemistry. Keep an open mind, don't limit yourself, and tear up those stupid shopping lists!
When two people fall in love with one another and they are truly compatible, it's caused by forces of nature, and it happens very rarely. Some people never fall in love with anyone but choose to settle down with someone, because they think "well, fuck it, it's time." Or they don't want to be alone. Or they just choose someone who fits the bill because of outside expectations. It's sad.
So I take issue with the following sentence you wrote: "Asian men belong to Asian women and vice versa. Theyu00e2u0080u0099re logically expected to be with each other." Sorry, but WTF? Based on what reasoning? This reminds me of a quote in the trial court's opinion in Loving v. Virginia: "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for [interracial] marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." That laughable opinion was written by a friendly neighborhood white supremacist judge back in Virginia in the 1960s who then subsequently banished an interracial couple from Virginia for 25 years. (Fortunately, the Supreme Court decided to come out of the dark ages and declare such anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional.) Okay, I went on a tangent, but I fail to see how Asian women and Asian men can be logically expected to be with each other unless the motivation is preserving ethnic purity, in which case the scary Loving v. Virginia lower court quote isn't that far off...
Anyway, I reject any type of directive that limits possibilities in the dating realm.
How about this? Instead of presenting the situation you described above as an affirmative action type of situation (which still paints Asian males as a group that needs help), why don't you say, "Hey, if you limit yourself by only dating white guys, you are only limiting your chances of finding someone you may fall in love with. Broaden your search and keep an open mind." I think that is reasonable. I call it the Charlotte lesson - Charlotte from "Sex and the City" thought that Trey was the perfect match based on a grocery list of what she perceived to be the "perfect mate", but they had no chemistry. Then came the divorce. Then she came across Harry, and at first she was totally perplexed by her attraction to him, but then she realized that, hey, limiting yourself is silly. And they lived happily ever after.
I guess my conclusion would be - falling in love in rare. When you are blessed with that rare event that some people never experience, you've won the lottery. Don't throw away that lottery ticket - cash it in!
And yes... TO HELL WITH EVERYONE ELSE!
Trying again... glad I saved it on notepad...
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Rob:
That's great that J found someone with her required set of attributes, one of which was motivated by a sense of social justice. I hope it works out for them. But most importantly, I hope they are in love.
I'm skeptical of shopping for a partner with a particular set of attributes. Why? Finding a suitable partner is not like shopping for the perfect set of shoes or the perfect ingredients to make the perfect paella. Making a checklist and then following it by the book will not create chemistry. Keep an open mind, don't limit yourself, and tear up those stupid shopping lists!
When two people fall in love with one another and they are truly compatible, it's caused by forces of nature, and it happens very rarely. Some people never fall in love with anyone but choose to settle down with someone, because they think "well, fuck it, it's time." Or they don't want to be alone. Or they just choose someone who fits the bill because of outside expectations. It's sad.
So I take issue with the following sentence you wrote: "Asian men belong to Asian women and vice versa. Theyu00e2u0080u0099re logically expected to be with each other." Sorry, but WTF? Based on what reasoning? This reminds me of a quote in the trial court's opinion in Loving v. Virginia: "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for [interracial] marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." That laughable opinion was written by a friendly neighborhood white supremacist judge back in Virginia in the 1960s who then subsequently banished an interracial couple from Virginia for 25 years. (Fortunately, the Supreme Court decided to come out of the dark ages and declare such anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional.) Okay, I went on a tangent, but I fail to see how Asian women and Asian men can be logically expected to be with each other unless the motivation is preserving ethnic purity, in which case the scary Loving v. Virginia lower court quote isn't that far off...
Anyway, I reject any type of directive that limits possibilities in the dating realm.
How about this? Instead of presenting the situation you described above as an affirmative action type of situation (which still paints Asian males as a group that needs help), why don't you say, "Hey, if you limit yourself by only dating white guys, you are only limiting your chances of finding someone you may fall in love with. Broaden your search and keep an open mind." I think that is reasonable. I call it the Charlotte lesson - Charlotte from "Sex and the City" thought that Trey was the perfect match based on a grocery list of what she perceived to be the "perfect mate", but they had no chemistry. Then came the divorce. Then she came across Harry, and at first she was totally perplexed by her attraction to him, but then she realized that, hey, limiting yourself is silly. And they lived happily ever after.
I guess my conclusion would be - falling in love in rare. When you are blessed with that rare event that some people never experience, you've won the lottery. Don't throw away that lottery ticket - cash it in!
And yes... TO HELL WITH EVERYONE ELSE!
[Ernie, what happened to my comment? It didn't post.]
[Ernie, what happened to my comment? It didn't post.]
Hi Rob:
I can appreciate the sentiments and personal policies behind your assertions. It would be frustrating to be an Asian male who sees, everywhere he turns, women he might potentially be interested in dating White males instead. Of all the members in society, it is most unfair and uncalled for when Asian women are the ones perpetuating the emasculation of Asian men...if that is really what we're doing. I, too, take issue when Asian women blatantly and unapologetically opt for White men only because they see White men as superior to Asian men and believe that marrying white is marrying up. Your friend J refused to indulge in all this and that's great. If her one true love is her husband right now (who happens to also be Asian), that's also great. And that's the point I think you missed in all this...
Recall the simplest and most profound statement in MJ's entire piece: "I fell in love with him. Nothing else really mattered."
Allow me one brief Hallmark moment: transcending politics, ideologies, and any other social principle should always be Love.
Hi Rob:
I can appreciate the sentiments and personal policies behind your assertions. It would be frustrating to be an Asian male who sees, everywhere he turns, women he might potentially be interested in dating White males instead. Of all the members in society, it is most unfair and uncalled for when Asian women are the ones perpetuating the emasculation of Asian men...if that is really what we're doing. I, too, take issue when Asian women blatantly and unapologetically opt for White men only because they see White men as superior to Asian men and believe that marrying white is marrying up. Your friend J refused to indulge in all this and that's great. If her one true love is her husband right now (who happens to also be Asian), that's also great. And that's the point I think you missed in all this...
Recall the simplest and most profound statement in MJ's entire piece: "I fell in love with him. Nothing else really mattered."
Allow me one brief Hallmark moment: transcending politics, ideologies, and any other social principle should always be Love.
Naturally, Iu00e2u0080u0099m going to disagree.
While my friendu00e2u0080u0099s sister made a personal choice to date Asian men, she did it because she could address two situations with one shot. Both she and MJ wanted to find someone who they were interested in. However, his sister, who weu00e2u0080u0099ll call u00e2u0080u009cJ,u00e2u0080u009d firmly believes that in dating and marrying white men, she would be assisting in the degradation and emasculation of Asian men which is so rife in North America.
Therefore, she went an extra step by fighting the emasculated Asian male stereotype. In essence, she did something personal which would assist in the public good for Asian America. One of the primary concerns on the agenda is Asian male emasculation. She sacrificed more time and energy and took it to another level. I have no problems if MJ didnu00e2u0080u0099t feel like going that extra step but what J did was truly extraordinary.
Also, I take offense to your definition of charity. I agree Asian men donu00e2u0080u0099t wish to be viewed as charity cases. To me, it sounds no different than conservatives who justify the injustice of affirmative action. Others argue that hiring minorities based on skin color, rather than skill, will lead to a decrease in quality. Affirmative action isnu00e2u0080u0099t about picking people based on their skin color, itu00e2u0080u0099s the idea of finding someone whou00e2u0080u0099s qualified but who is also a minority. Itu00e2u0080u0099s not a direct comparison but the gist of it remains, J simply found someone whou00e2u0080u0099s just as good as the best white guy but looked around for the Asian male version. When I was stationed in France, it was interesting to note that the French called Affirmative Action u00e2u0080u009cPositive Discrimination.u00e2u0080u009d
Your personal story is your own and dismissing it would be unfair. However, I would like to add that in cities that are populated with many Asian Americans, the interracial dating ratio is still horribly skewed. If there are no Asian Americans around, thatu00e2u0080u0099s different. However, weu00e2u0080u0099re talking about San Francisco. You canu00e2u0080u0099t walk two steps without bumping into an Asian person. Also, I never said that every Asian male suffers from this problem but if this topic keeps coming up, there is certainly a u00e2u0080u009cproblem.u00e2u0080u009d Also, Iu00e2u0080u0099d like to add that Asian American women have a very sizable population that want nothing to do with Asian men but thatu00e2u0080u0099s a discussion for another time. In fact, almost all Asian men know of at least one of these and almost every Asian woman knows of the u00e2u0080u009cAngry Asian Man.u00e2u0080u009d
So, please. Youu00e2u0080u0099re only doing the community a disservice by attempting to ignore it.
Yes, you should be doing what you want but everyone needs to study the ramifications of what one is doing. It somewhat reminds me of the quote u00e2u0080u009cHey, Iu00e2u0080u0099m only one vote. Mine wonu00e2u0080u0099t make a difference.u00e2u0080u009d Thus, no one votes at all thinking the same thing. Something small adds up to something big.
I apologize if my post is a bit scatterbrained but I canu00e2u0080u0099t properly arrange my thoughts in the middle of a major project.
Cheers.
Naturally, Iu00e2u0080u0099m going to disagree.
While my friendu00e2u0080u0099s sister made a personal choice to date Asian men, she did it because she could address two situations with one shot. Both she and MJ wanted to find someone who they were interested in. However, his sister, who weu00e2u0080u0099ll call u00e2u0080u009cJ,u00e2u0080u009d firmly believes that in dating and marrying white men, she would be assisting in the degradation and emasculation of Asian men which is so rife in North America.
Therefore, she went an extra step by fighting the emasculated Asian male stereotype. In essence, she did something personal which would assist in the public good for Asian America. One of the primary concerns on the agenda is Asian male emasculation. She sacrificed more time and energy and took it to another level. I have no problems if MJ didnu00e2u0080u0099t feel like going that extra step but what J did was truly extraordinary.
Also, I take offense to your definition of charity. I agree Asian men donu00e2u0080u0099t wish to be viewed as charity cases. To me, it sounds no different than conservatives who justify the injustice of affirmative action. Others argue that hiring minorities based on skin color, rather than skill, will lead to a decrease in quality. Affirmative action isnu00e2u0080u0099t about picking people based on their skin color, itu00e2u0080u0099s the idea of finding someone whou00e2u0080u0099s qualified but who is also a minority. Itu00e2u0080u0099s not a direct comparison but the gist of it remains, J simply found someone whou00e2u0080u0099s just as good as the best white guy but looked around for the Asian male version. When I was stationed in France, it was interesting to note that the French called Affirmative Action u00e2u0080u009cPositive Discrimination.u00e2u0080u009d
Your personal story is your own and dismissing it would be unfair. However, I would like to add that in cities that are populated with many Asian Americans, the interracial dating ratio is still horribly skewed. If there are no Asian Americans around, thatu00e2u0080u0099s different. However, weu00e2u0080u0099re talking about San Francisco. You canu00e2u0080u0099t walk two steps without bumping into an Asian person. Also, I never said that every Asian male suffers from this problem but if this topic keeps coming up, there is certainly a u00e2u0080u009cproblem.u00e2u0080u009d Also, Iu00e2u0080u0099d like to add that Asian American women have a very sizable population that want nothing to do with Asian men but thatu00e2u0080u0099s a discussion for another time. In fact, almost all Asian men know of at least one of these and almost every Asian woman knows of the u00e2u0080u009cAngry Asian Man.u00e2u0080u009d
So, please. Youu00e2u0080u0099re only doing the community a disservice by attempting to ignore it.
Yes, you should be doing what you want but everyone needs to study the ramifications of what one is doing. It somewhat reminds me of the quote u00e2u0080u009cHey, Iu00e2u0080u0099m only one vote. Mine wonu00e2u0080u0099t make a difference.u00e2u0080u009d Thus, no one votes at all thinking the same thing. Something small adds up to something big.
I apologize if my post is a bit scatterbrained but I canu00e2u0080u0099t properly arrange my thoughts in the middle of a major project.
Cheers.
Go Bertie!
Go Bertie!
Rob:
I wholeheartedly disagree with your post. Your friend's sister made a personal choice to date Asian men. It's her choice; it's what makes her happy. End of story. What you are saying is that individual choice needs to be tempered with responsibility to society or a perceived "common good". Your analogy between (1) a hedge fund manager who keeps all his money and (2) an Asian female who dates outside the race is incredibly flawed and wrong on so many levels. Basically, I believe you are arguing that both the greedy hedge fund manager and the Asian female in the interracial relationship are uncharitable and selfish. Are you saying that Asian males need charity? That is incredibly offensive to Asian males. Furthermore, making an analogy between what to do with one's money and the internal compass that drives love/attraction is just comical.
How about another personal anecdote? My family has always lived in areas with very few Asian Americans, and the Asian Americans in those areas all married outside of their race - both MALE and female. Should those folks have exclusively date the three or four Asian Americans they came across? Ridiculous. The Asian males from back home did not seem themselves as "emasculated"; in fact, they were confident and normal. You can disagree with me on this, but they did not have the victim mentality that seems to be so prevalent where Asian American males have a peer group of Asian American males to discuss and internalize this "emasculated Asian male" issue ad nauseam. It was sink or swim, and they swam, just like anyone else.
Finally, marriage is a covenant between two individuals who have pledged to love and nurture each other exclusively for as long as they live. It is a contract entered into by two people in love. Period. To enter into such a union because society dictates that a certain type of person is appropriate or to refrain from entering into such a union because society would not approve leads to bad situations.
Please, love whomever you want. Choose the one who makes you happy. You have one life, and don't let society tell you whom to love. This has been a public service announcement.
(Wow, I've commented a lot today. Slow day. Back to work!)
Rob:
I wholeheartedly disagree with your post. Your friend's sister made a personal choice to date Asian men. It's her choice; it's what makes her happy. End of story. What you are saying is that individual choice needs to be tempered with responsibility to society or a perceived "common good". Your analogy between (1) a hedge fund manager who keeps all his money and (2) an Asian female who dates outside the race is incredibly flawed and wrong on so many levels. Basically, I believe you are arguing that both the greedy hedge fund manager and the Asian female in the interracial relationship are uncharitable and selfish. Are you saying that Asian males need charity? That is incredibly offensive to Asian males. Furthermore, making an analogy between what to do with one's money and the internal compass that drives love/attraction is just comical.
How about another personal anecdote? My family has always lived in areas with very few Asian Americans, and the Asian Americans in those areas all married outside of their race - both MALE and female. Should those folks have exclusively date the three or four Asian Americans they came across? Ridiculous. The Asian males from back home did not seem themselves as "emasculated"; in fact, they were confident and normal. You can disagree with me on this, but they did not have the victim mentality that seems to be so prevalent where Asian American males have a peer group of Asian American males to discuss and internalize this "emasculated Asian male" issue ad nauseam. It was sink or swim, and they swam, just like anyone else.
Finally, marriage is a covenant between two individuals who have pledged to love and nurture each other exclusively for as long as they live. It is a contract entered into by two people in love. Period. To enter into such a union because society dictates that a certain type of person is appropriate or to refrain from entering into such a union because society would not approve leads to bad situations.
Please, love whomever you want. Choose the one who makes you happy. You have one life, and don't let society tell you whom to love. This has been a public service announcement.
(Wow, I've commented a lot today. Slow day. Back to work!)
I apologize for any typos and grammer mistakes as I'm typing on a Blackberry where I can't see part of the screen.
I apologize for any typos and grammer mistakes as I'm typing on a Blackberry where I can't see part of the screen.
Not to nitpick but if personal happiness is all that matters and everyone else be damned, why should I feel guilty about not donating to society at large just because I'm a 28 years old hedge fund manager, make over 130k a year, drive a Mercedes, and own two homes and one apartment?
I think the best approach is to pursue your own happiness with personal responsibility.
I'll give you a real but short example. A high school friend of mine has a beautiful Korean sister and she's quite aware of how Asian men are walking wounded regarding this issue. On top of that, she also firmly believes that the image of Asian women with white men certainly assists in emasculating Asian men.
She has two brothers who she loves more than anything and she's also very proud, militant even, about being Asian. That's right, I said "Asian," not Korean. While she's been hit on by many white men, she had chosen to wait for the proper Asian man to walk along. It took her much longer after going out with many sub par Asian men, but she stuck at it. Eventually, she found the perfect guy who just happens to be a Chinese American. She fell madly in love with him and married him last year in Palo Alto.
They want their children to learn mandarin, Korean, and English.
My point is that Asian American women don't go out of their way to find their own men as the best match. We're simply interchangeable with white men. I just find this main sticking point to be a huge problem because women of all other demographics place their "own" because of some type of kinship.
Many Asian Americans don't believe this is a problem but the fact that we're having this discussion right now proves that it is. Until this problem with gender division is present, we won't stand a chance to compete as a racial demographic. Don't wait until this problem arrives on our porch before we think it's a problem.
See, I'm sure everyone here is concerned about media stereotypes of the Asian male. The mere image of Asian women with white men is assisting in emasculating Asian men. We bitch about constantly seeing it in American media but is art imitating life or is life imitating art? I'm not telling anyone what to do but I think Asian women need to realize the ramifications of their actions.
I'm not going to beat around the bush. Asian men belong to Asian women and vice versa. They're logically expected to be with each other. When white society sees so many Asian women with white men, they must be thinking that there is something defective with Asian men to cause Asian women to flee.
Not to nitpick but if personal happiness is all that matters and everyone else be damned, why should I feel guilty about not donating to society at large just because I'm a 28 years old hedge fund manager, make over 130k a year, drive a Mercedes, and own two homes and one apartment?
I think the best approach is to pursue your own happiness with personal responsibility.
I'll give you a real but short example. A high school friend of mine has a beautiful Korean sister and she's quite aware of how Asian men are walking wounded regarding this issue. On top of that, she also firmly believes that the image of Asian women with white men certainly assists in emasculating Asian men.
She has two brothers who she loves more than anything and she's also very proud, militant even, about being Asian. That's right, I said "Asian," not Korean. While she's been hit on by many white men, she had chosen to wait for the proper Asian man to walk along. It took her much longer after going out with many sub par Asian men, but she stuck at it. Eventually, she found the perfect guy who just happens to be a Chinese American. She fell madly in love with him and married him last year in Palo Alto.
They want their children to learn mandarin, Korean, and English.
My point is that Asian American women don't go out of their way to find their own men as the best match. We're simply interchangeable with white men. I just find this main sticking point to be a huge problem because women of all other demographics place their "own" because of some type of kinship.
Many Asian Americans don't believe this is a problem but the fact that we're having this discussion right now proves that it is. Until this problem with gender division is present, we won't stand a chance to compete as a racial demographic. Don't wait until this problem arrives on our porch before we think it's a problem.
See, I'm sure everyone here is concerned about media stereotypes of the Asian male. The mere image of Asian women with white men is assisting in emasculating Asian men. We bitch about constantly seeing it in American media but is art imitating life or is life imitating art? I'm not telling anyone what to do but I think Asian women need to realize the ramifications of their actions.
I'm not going to beat around the bush. Asian men belong to Asian women and vice versa. They're logically expected to be with each other. When white society sees so many Asian women with white men, they must be thinking that there is something defective with Asian men to cause Asian women to flee.
By "you're" of course I meant "your."
By "you're" of course I meant "your."
That was an incredibly well-written piece, MJ. You're disclaimer in the beginning was NOT needed at all!! You write fantabulously in first person narrative!
Ratrace,
You may feel free to disagree here and even critique anything posted, but please do so in a constructive manner.
That was an incredibly well-written piece, MJ. You're disclaimer in the beginning was NOT needed at all!! You write fantabulously in first person narrative!
Ratrace,
You may feel free to disagree here and even critique anything posted, but please do so in a constructive manner.
The ideal situation is not feeling like you have to justify anything to anyone other than yourself.
BRAVO! BRAVO! And let me add that if you've found the right person, and you're in love, what other people think is of no significance. You're not marrying the peanut gallery; you're marrying the one you love.
(P.S. Ratrace, what an ignorant comment.)
The ideal situation is not feeling like you have to justify anything to anyone other than yourself.
BRAVO! BRAVO! And let me add that if you've found the right person, and you're in love, what other people think is of no significance. You're not marrying the peanut gallery; you're marrying the one you love.
(P.S. Ratrace, what an ignorant comment.)
Bravo, Min Jung, for a thoughtful, well-written post.
Bravo, Min Jung, for a thoughtful, well-written post.
Ratrace - what is your point? That Asians should only date and marry Asians? That doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I wouldn't mind dating and marrying Keira Knightley :-), but I'd rather date and marry Zhang Ziyi :-)
Ratrace - what is your point? That Asians should only date and marry Asians? That doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I wouldn't mind dating and marrying Keira Knightley :-), but I'd rather date and marry Zhang Ziyi :-)
The ideal situation is not feeling like you have to justify anything to anyone other than yourself.
The ideal situation is not feeling like you have to justify anything to anyone other than yourself.
I guess you can justify anything if it relates to you.
I guess you can justify anything if it relates to you.
You know, I know that interracial dating is a topic that's dear to many people's hearts, and I respect that, but I just want to say that it's really not on my list of priorities as an ethnopolitical issue. Maybe because I come from Seattle, which someone told me to my face (very derisively) was the "interratial dating capital of the world." Also, to my Filipino American family, multi-ratial marriages and partnerships are the norm.
So maybe me being post-interratial dating is the exception rather than the rule, but I just want to say that to me this topic is so not news. There are so many aspects of our cultures and lives to celebrate; there are so many ways we as a group still face discrimination in terms of housing, education, and employment; there are so many ways our immigrant families, our cousins "back home" and our friends in America just do not understand us.... And when I consider all of those things, worrying about whether white women are attracted to me or not just seems beside the point. I mean, white women just are not the arbiters of my self worth.
I do recognize that this is an important topic to some people, and that identity is a journey, and all that; but I also wanted to offer the perspective that it's not the most pressing issue facing Asian Americans today. Thanks
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