From Current: Rainbow Nation, a five minute “pod” on stereotypes and Gay Asian males.
That’s a way to get a response from me; create a video that starts out with the line, “Asian men have a lot of diseases [and] small penises.”
Gimmicky way to start off a documentary aside, some interesting points are raised by this video: stereotypes of Gay Asian men exist - that they’re skinny, smooth, only date white guys and that they are effeminate and thus passive. The pod also asserts that non-Asians feel that the stereotypes of Asians are justified because that’s all they see when they walk around in the Castro on go on chat rooms.
Usually it’s easy to write my own personal opinions on the matter, but for this post I’m having a strangely difficult time on this one. Maybe it’s because I’m definitely not a gay Asian stereotype - I’m definitely NOT skinny, I can’t dress for shit (ask my friend Royce; he’ll tell you stories) and I don’t think I’m THAT effeminate (other 8A writers, feel free to shoot me down if I assume wrong.) While fighting stereotypes sound like a noble thing, when you’re coming out of the closet you WANT to fit in somewhere, be in a tribe, look and act like everyone else as a way to not feel ostracized. I had huge self-esteem issues where I’ve felt like the only way I could ever find a boyfriend is if I were to somehow magically lose fifty pounds and dress in DKNY, because that’s the only thing I saw - horrible, but true. As a result, I hung out with the bear subculture for a while, but that didn’t make things any better - an experience with discrimination there is one of the reasons why I started 8Asians.
Now I’m a little older and I know that if someone is trying so hard to live up to a certain label that they’re not really worth my effort anyway. Dating is still a challenge but if someone is not into me, then their bad. Gaysians, what are your experiences?
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THE_BANANA_REPUBLIC wrote:
So, I’m not gay, but watching this video made my male asian roommate stop what he was doing and ask what the hell I was watching. When I explained that it was a short film on gay asian stereotypes as perceived by the San Francisco gay community, he began to ask why I would ever be interested in such a thing. The way he led his following inquiry made him sound indignant.
This roommate was the former co-president of the Asian Pacific Student Union at my university. He’s currently in some asian-themed fraternity, xyz.
Is there homophobia within the Asian American community?
Posted on 10-Feb-08 at 11:27 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Uh, duh?!
You only need to look at the response by the straight Asian men to the Details brouhaha to see that homophobia is fucking alive and well in our community.
Posted on 10-Feb-08 at 11:48 pm | Permalink
Ernie wrote:
“Is there homophobia within the Asian American community?”
I think there are elements of it. I was in a co-ed frat that was 90% Asian American in college, and actually came out while I was president of our chapter. I don’t think it’s so much outright homophobia as it is a lack of exposure - I was the first out gay Asian person that some of them knew. There were other GLBT members of course, but they weren’t necessarily out - it was kind of a “I think s/he is but I’m not sure” kind of thing.
Posted on 10-Feb-08 at 11:55 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Oooh–Ernie, now you’ve gone and done it!
I think that’s the main problem with us queer Asians–in the queer community, we’re becoming more and more significant and powerful, and yet, we barely register on anyone else’s radar, unless of course, you’re Alec Mapa or Margaret Cho.
There is a dilemma that we queer Asian boys have to deal with, at least in SF, such as fitting into the mainstream and pretending that racism doesn’t exist, and overemphasizing our non-Americanness OR our Americanness; dating Asians and being accepted within our community, or dating others and risk ostracism; and don’t even get me started on the skinny, smooth crap either.
I know I’m lucky. Most of my friends are queer Asian boys and girls who have decided not to buy into these expectations, but I see so many queer Asian boys who come into SF and it’s a shock for most of them to see how fragmented we really are. For example, I know that aside from you, the number of gay fat Asian boys I know can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and I’d still have fingers left over. I also refuse to be the nelly fem that’s expected of us queer Asian boys, and I still laugh when I meet random people who are absolutely shocked that I’m gay!
And on a personal note, Ernie, I think you dress pretty well, and that you should have boys beating down your door to date you, and as far as I know, you don’t seem that fem at all to me. I should probably introduce you to my friends if and when they come down to hang out… Just don’t mention anything about the man sachets…;)
Posted on 11-Feb-08 at 12:44 am | Permalink
cheekyricegirl wrote:
good lord. that white dude with the piercing in his eyebrow was getting a bit carried away in reciting what he personally finds to be a turn-off about gay asians guys. and he even readily acknowledges that, for him, an asian guy would have to make an “uphill climb” before he’d even be impressed.
whatev.
thanks for sharing this vid. it has opened my eyes quite a bit. there have been discussions about how the asian male is slighted here in american society, both on an academic and also a pragmatic level, and that the dating scene isn’t particularly kind to them. as an asian girl, i do feel sorry for all the asian-american guys
for having perpetually to make that uphill climb to surmount all of these prejudices and stereotypes. but i think what’s empowering about being a minority here in the united states is that we have the freedom to change perceptions and make our minorityhood more visible and get more attention.
and the first step is just in putting the message out there. and that’s what you’ve done. good job.
Posted on 11-Feb-08 at 12:56 am | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how Balkanized the gay community seems to be in San Francisco.
I tried explaining to someone I know that once the out gay population in any city or region reaches a critical mass, the less unified and the more fragmented the community becomes. In San Francisco Bay area, it appears that there are so many distinct subcultures in the gay demographic that these weird divisions are created between the subcultures, leading to bizarre misunderstandings, because no one ventures outside of his or her little bubble. And these misunderstandings lead to these wack-ass stereotypes, because if you stay in your little bubble, you lack exposure to different people, and thus, your beliefs aren’t challenged and corrected. Then these stereotypes become a self-fulling prophecy, which is totally outrageous. I can only hope that everyone grows out of this crap like you have.
Anyway, I just want to end with something totally unhelpful - I’m so glad I don’t live in San Francisco. I think all that drama - and the expectations of living up to a certain label - isn’t worth it! I read about the whole brouhaha with the Badlands and their unspoken whites-only door policy. I mean… WTF?!?!?
Yes, I live in the NYC area - also a city with a large gay population, but it doesn’t seem so insane over here. Maybe it’s because I avoid most gay people (and most people in general)!
Posted on 11-Feb-08 at 9:04 am | Permalink
Brian wrote:
Fascinating stuff. Post more! That hypocrisy of gay asian men getting offended at “white only” posts, but then themselves listing their interests as “white only” is fucking unbelievable. Ha!
Posted on 11-Feb-08 at 12:46 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Brian: Welcome to my world! If it wasn’t for the fact that my romantic and erotic leanings were towards other Asian men, I’d be so irritated…
Maybe it’s high time I post about my experiences, since I think Ernie and I have assumed that all you str8 people know all about us gay folk, but maybe it’s time to let the truth come out.
Posted on 11-Feb-08 at 3:13 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
“Maybe it’s high time I post about my experiences, since I think Ernie and I have assumed that all you str8 people know all about us gay folk, but maybe it’s time to let the truth come out. :)”
Here’s the truth in a nutshell: gay people are just as dysfunctional and ridiculous as straight people. In other words, we are just like you.
Posted on 11-Feb-08 at 9:56 pm | Permalink
ersatz wrote:
I find it problematic that the documentary had “help” from a white gay male to discuss the issue of gay asian males stereotypes. His myopic view on race is as dated as eyebrow piercings and bleached hair. I guess me and my fellow brethren aren’t qualified enough to dialogue about something that we experience everyday.
Even though there were gay asian males in the documentary, these are guys who have actively tried to extricate themselves from the gay asian community. By doing so, they are also buying into the stereotypes that we as a community should openly discuss and resist. Not a very credible reference.
Posted on 12-Feb-08 at 12:25 am | Permalink
cheekyricegirl wrote:
ersatz, you nailed it. i was having problems with that whole vid — and you perfectly describe why.
Posted on 12-Feb-08 at 11:33 am | Permalink
Efren wrote:
There are gay Asian guys who’ve done amazing stuff on racism in the gay Asian community and on gay Asians. But as I’ve stated, most of us who are really able to have a self-critical eye are those that are often pushed out because we realize that we’re as fucked up as everybody else, and it shows how fragmented gay Asians are here in SF. It’s the same concept of “the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.”
I can argue that there isn’t a gay Asian community here that people think there is, especially since many of the groups that claim to promote community are more into promoting their own versions of biphobia, transphobia, classism, lookism, sexism, racism/regionalism, and ageism, than actually creating communities among gay Asian men (not to mention other gay/bi/queer men of color, or queer women of color). I’m proud to be a gay Asian man, but at the same time, I’ve been trying for too damn long to actually have real conversations about this among other gay Asian men and I now realize that most of them simply aren’t interested in having these conversations in a progressive manner other than “why won’t white men date me?”.
Posted on 13-Feb-08 at 12:38 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
I got around to watching the video, and this is all I have to say…
To Mr. Eyebrow Piercing: HELLO, TINKERBELL, WHO ARE YOU CALLING EFFEMINATE?!
Posted on 13-Feb-08 at 4:04 pm | Permalink
Chas wrote:
I don’t actually expect someone can cover a complex topic like this in a sub-5-minute podcast, but even a full-length doc like Rice and Potatoes is a product of the folks writing the questions, shooting the interviews, and doing the editing. This topic has not been exhausted.
I’ve also heard the ridiculous statement that all gay Asians are bottoms; I did correct the guy. (The biggest group for both White and Asian in my encounters have been flexible/versatile. Asians edged out Whites for highest percent of tops. But then I’m shy, so I may self-select for tops.)
And I was able to come up with 4 fat gay Asians I know personally, at least one of whom you know, Efren, from the Noodle days (no, you and I haven’t met but we have probably several 1-or-2-degrees of separation connections). But you have to be quite overweight to fit my definition of fat; if I take society’s definition, I probably know a dozen. Also know a few hairy. And there are plenty of Asian 6-foot-plus hunks running around SF, as I imagine you’ve noticed.
Posted on 16-Feb-08 at 3:50 am | Permalink
G wrote:
After some discussions with other Asian males, both gay and straight, I think there are two explanations for the high rate of homophobia among Asian males.
The first is by far, most Asians tend to come from pretty conservative cultures…a lot of East Asian families probably found Christianity pretty appealing because of its conservative philosophies. (I only comment on East Asian because I am more familiar with those cultures.)
The second reason is more reactionary, in that some straight Asian males feel that gay Asians receive much more media/public attention than straight Asian males, especially the gay Asians that convey the aforementioned stereotype of “skinny, smooth, only date white guys and that they are effeminate and thus passive”. This to the straight guys is bad news, since the media representation of Asian males is pretty bad as it is, so there’s a lot of resentment over how gay Asians just feed the stereotypes of Asian men in general of being rather effeminate and passive.
Posted on 17-Feb-08 at 11:34 am | Permalink
sillynun wrote:
It sort of is strange to me that the comments here start off with “But the Asian community is homophobic”… Big deal, that doesn’t excuse racism.
I think it’s great that people share their stories, but I would rather here specific examples of how I, as a white guy who is trying to work on and attend to my racism, can address these issues. It’s one thing to continue to list off the indignities, but real change comes when we start addressing the problems and actually doing something differently.
Posted on 19-Feb-08 at 7:50 am | Permalink
aboutanyboy wrote:
sp ur not an asian steretype:
Cant dress CHECK
Not Skinny CHECK
Not fem CHECK
Only into WHITE guys ??
Posted on 19-Feb-08 at 9:43 am | Permalink
Julian wrote:
The video with most of the footage focused on a white gay man’s views was obviously problematic. But in confronting the racist stereotypes of Asian gay men and Asian men in general we also need to be careful ourselves of not falling into gendered (and transphobic) arguments that privilege masculinity or butchness…so some Asian men are considered effeminate…so the f*ck what? Asian men and especially the straight ones need to stop obsessing about what White America thinks of your penis size.
Posted on 19-Feb-08 at 10:41 am | Permalink
dr anonymous wrote:
Well, you could start by not trying to shift a conversation in a racialized space towards your needs
Posted on 19-Feb-08 at 3:39 pm | Permalink
MiNG wrote:
I just finished watching this clip and I am livid. Why? I’v met Mark before and can’t believe all the vomit that flowed out of his mouth.
1. One of his white friend only dates Asian men.
2. He graduated from Stanford, so I expected him to be a lot more tolerant.
3. If you ever meet him, you will notice that he is shy, skinny, “femmy,” and a strictly a bottom. All his yapping is purely projection.
4. If he is complaining that 50% of patrons at a bar are Asians, then get the F*&K out or learn how to count! Better yet, move out of the Bay Area.
I cannot he would say all this. My level of respect for him is gone!
What is the purpose of the clip? Is it to create a bigger divide within the community? Shouldn’t we as a gay community focus on empowering each other?
Posted on 19-Feb-08 at 10:36 pm | Permalink
fed wrote:
I think the point of the video is just to highlight a problem. You can’t really eliminate discrimination in other people forceably; you can’t make someone take an Asian man home at the end of the night if he doesn’t want to. What you *can* do is call it out when you see it (but I think sometimes people see it when it isn’t there), and be aware of your own biases. Ask yourself if you’d treat the man talking to you differently if he were another color. I don’t think anyone can be expected to create an instant 180-shift in his behavior, but awareness tends to hinder discrimination both mentally and in its physical manifestations.
Posted on 21-Feb-08 at 9:23 am | Permalink
rondezvous wrote:
I’m glad to see more objective views into this topic, which unfortunately exists not only in San Francisco, but in the minds of the general gay male population.
As gay male of Asian (Filipino) decent, I encounter this in my interactions with with both Asian and non-Asian. This mini-documentary was a good start, but there can be much more built on it. I also have a different view as a younger person. The interviewed population appeared to be in the same general age bracket, and views of those who frequent/live in the Castro district - a small, but eye-opening sample. When looking into issues of Asians, it’s important good to take into account the different populations within the Asian community - Chinese, Filipino, Indian, first-generation immigrants, second-generation, multi-national, etc. I found that Asians are almost treated as a minority within a minority - racism as a black/white thing, diversity as including blacks and women, and immigration centered around latinos.
As with all stereotypes, there may be cases that support them to be true, but cannot speak and generalize an entire population, especially when Asians make-up millions (or billions?) of the world’s population. These stereotypes also mirror the general values and championed hyper-masculinized images in American society (i.e. aggressiveness, muscles, hyper-masculinity, big penises). From my experience, I found many cases where these stereotypes weren’t true. And in some, I found that the stereotypes were being portrayed in non-Asian gay men: docile white males, black males with small penises, effeminate latin men, and all permutations in within.
These idealized images are shoved in front of the consumer’s face from male-magazines, pornography, television, news, movies, ads, dance-club fliers, and literature. So do these stereotypes really exist? Or, do these media outlets convince the general population it’s true? If I just accepted what’s in the current mainstream media to be true, I would think that all white, younger, females all have psychological and substance abuse problems who eventually will be in rehab. I know that definitely shouldn’t be my skewed basis on the white, younger females, but this is the sad reality of “reality” television.
Another semi-touchy issue that I’ve faced, but that was not mentioned in this segment was the fine line between “dating preferences” and racism/discrimination. It’s easy to automatically brush off someone in large part because of their race under the mask of their “dating preferences,” but how different is this from racism? Race seems to be playing a big role in dating, and one can easily can make another race inferior to theirs or others, almost creating a racial hierarchy. And, although this form of racism doesn’t involve mass genocide, maybe we’re blind to how racism has possibly evolved into different facets of everyone’s lives.
As a second-generation gay Filipino male born in San Francisco and raised in the Bay Area, I find these views to differ from those who are first-generation immigrants. Being very cognizant of my surroundings and influences that affect my personal development, I’ve learned to take a step back and see the forces at work. One who has just recently been immersed into American society are sadly initially exposed to stereotyping, and the plethora of hyper-masculinized ideology rampant in the gay male community. In going out to bars, I see truly diverse populations, and sometimes find myself victim to the objectification of the gay Asian male stereotypes. I’m a proud equal-opportunity dater, and won’t immediately shun someone out because of their race.
I hope that soon as a community there will be a change in consciousness at how others are viewed and portrayed since it does have major long-term macro and micro implications on one’s psychology and interactions with others.
I welcome any comments because I think it’s important to continue this discussion.
Posted on 22-Feb-08 at 2:14 am | Permalink
Chas wrote:
With regard to fed’s “You can’t really eliminate discrimination in other people forcibly; you can’t make someone take an Asian man home at the end of the night if he doesn’t want to.” and rendevous’ “It’s easy to automatically brush off someone in large part because of their race under the mask of their ‘dating preferences,’ but how different is this from racism?”
Would you really want to go to bed with someone who harbored racist feelings against you? I can’t imagine it being any fun.
Coming from my end of things, I’m (as a white guy) overwhelmingly into Asians, but find there are attractive men of all races. I’ve even dated a couple older white men (70’s). But the men of non-East Asian races that I’m
attracted to constitute a much, much smaller percentage of those races. Whether that’s preference or racism, what do you propose to do about it?
Aside from racial preferences (or otherwise) I was also fortunate enough to have non-stereotypical Asians be my first encounters with the gay Asian community (communities?). I suspect the non-Asians who have the stereotypes (and call the stereotype-breakers “bad Asians” or deny their existence) learned of the stereotypes and sought them out before they actually got to know a wide range of Asians.
Even the Asians who appear stereotypical are more complex than that. A femme Asian might be dominating in bed (been there) while a petite Asian might conceal a fire hose in those pants (been there, too). And a bottom Asian can still be totally in charge of the proceedings (been there, three).
Not to put down stereotypical Asians. That would be like putting down drag queens for showing up at gay Pride events. If you don’t like them grabbing all the press…well, I don’t want to tell Asians what to do–except consensually of course ;P
Posted on 23-Feb-08 at 12:03 am | Permalink
vanguard wrote:
Here’s a somewhat different perspective on the whole thing from the vantage point of gay vs. straight as it pertains to Asian males.
When I was dating women, race was never really an issue. Throughout college, the idea that my ethnicity (Filipino) would be a factor in whether or not a girl would go out with me never factored. And I dated everything under the sun–Asian, white, Latino, black, and mixes (loved the mixes).
Coming out has made dating immeasurably more complicated, something it didn’t take too long to figure out when, at bars, the vast majority of men who would approach me were the significantly older, seemingly more predatory white guys with pick up lines like, “Hey, my name’s _____. I’m a producer.” Clearly expecting a response like “Ah meestah, I rove you rong time.”
Dating within the gay community has been far more limited. A Latino. An Asian. Significantly more white. Not that I don’t find non-white gay men unattractive, unfortunately the Asians and Latins and African-Americans that I do find hot generally fall into the “not really into Asians” paradigm. At one point, after talking to a beautiful Chinese guy at the Abbey for about thirty minutes, thinking we were making a bit of a love connection, I was taken aback when out the of the blue he asked “You don’t date Asians either, do you?”
Nowadays, I prefer straight bars over gay ones. It’s nicer getting hit on by attractive women at straight bars than fighting invisibility by questionably attractive men at gay ones.
Posted on 23-Feb-08 at 8:16 am | Permalink
skinnyfemaznman wrote:
This was an eye-opening video for me. Except for the fact that I am attracted to many different kinds of men, I fit the stereotypical bill. This usually means no one wants to date me, or that I get the immediate “back off” signal from gay men who think that I’m about to come too near. Unfortunately, I’ve never been able to engage anyone in an honest conversation about why.
What surprises me is the conscious willingness that underwrites this form of prejudice in the clip. I actually give the fellow credit for being so candid — it can’t be easy to open oneself up to the criticism that’s undoubtedly imminent. But for what it’s worth (and I can only speak for myself), I have been most dismayed by the butched-out gay Asian men who seem to look on me as if I’m not carrying my feather-weight for the cause. That stings most deeply.
I happen not to be interested in changing my body, my style, nor my affect in order to turn a hot man’s eye. I spent the better part of my 20s mistakenly thinking that I could be happy becoming the right object so I could maximize my gay experience. So that leaves someone like me with only the hope that we can talk about how and what it means to acknowledge our ignorance, in order ultimately to second-guess that ignorance. Even if it means never taking a skinny fem Asian man home. I admire the poster above who is trying to “work on and attend to” his racism, only because no one of us is free from the accusation.
Posted on 23-Feb-08 at 9:21 pm | Permalink
pete wrote:
hey i’m a rice potato kinda guy and date all races, really, it’s hard enough being gay yet find a longterm partner, it’s the statistical the numbers that go against us.
but you have to look at the overall big picture in america…. how many sexy leading asian male movie stars do u see? how many asian men news anchormen do we see?? i really think our asian str8 brother and gaybrothers need to work together on this.
Posted on 04-Mar-08 at 11:44 am | Permalink
pete wrote:
THE_BANANA_REPUBLIC — “Is there homophobia within the Asian American community?”
bro there is truth to that….if u read most of the gay personals including asian and non-asian personal the vast majority of these gaymen want a “str8″ acting, masculine type of guy with means someone that does not speak, has bodylanguage or mannerisms of an effeminate gay man… which is ironic since the vast majority of gay men has to some degree and some more of gay effeminate speak, mannerisms, thought process and in my opinion is ok it’s fine it’s who you are…. it’s like telling a cat to act like a dog a cat just cant’ just be a pussy (no pun intented) LOL… take for instance the fellow with the pierced eyebrow he obviously fits those charateristics and thats ok its fine but he does not like those features in a person… it’s kinda of like homo self hatred… asian men that only date non-asian men i feel there is there self hatred too a sense of low self esteem in this country… i spend a year in japan and believe me the vast majority of them prefer other japanese oo other asian men,,,, it makes sense the dominate prevalent race would be the standard of beauty in that country.
Posted on 06-Mar-08 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
Ernie wrote:
I was going through old posts and comments and somehow, I missed this comment where I get called out. And even though this comment is two months late and it reeks of flamebait, I’ll respond anyway, since it gives a good idea of my mindset posting this blog.
My first boyfriend is half-Vietnamese, half-white who associated with the Asian community. My second boyfriend is half-Black, half-Filipino. My last boyfriend is white although he swears he’s half Mexican. This doesn’t count the guys I’ve dated or *cough* hooked up with which have gone all over the map.
So do I, as a gay Asian male, fall into the same stereotype of Asians only for white guys? Yes, in that I haven’t exclusively dated Asians and Asian Americans? Or no, in that the guys I have dated don’t fit in the typical “rice queen” mold? Chances are, people will make snap judgments about me anyway, so by all means; judge away.
Posted on 19-May-08 at 9:45 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Ernie, I’d date you, but I already have a boyfriend. *wink*wink*
And of course, we know that mixed-race Asians aren’t really Asian, so you haven’t really dated an Asian. (BTW, it’s SARCASM. SARCASM, people! Sad that I actually have to point this out. Jesus.)
Posted on 19-May-08 at 11:41 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
Ernie - the court of public opinion should have no bearing on who you date. If we listened to the court of public opinion, you would be a doctor, I would be a doctor, and we’d be dating each other. That alone should frighten you.
Posted on 20-May-08 at 6:39 am | Permalink