Excited
Carlos Garcia, second from right, is president of the Asia Club at Lincoln High School. He is with his Cabinet members during a lunch-hour meeting. Source: LA Times.
“Why do Asian students generally get higher marks than Latinos?” – this is a question that a Los Angeles Times reporter asks a group of eight Asian and Latino students, some teachers, administrators and parents of students of a Lincoln High School in Los Angeles (Boyle Heights, El Sereno and Chinatown.) Lincoln High has about 2,500 students, where both the neighborhood and student body are about 15% Asian. But “as stereotypically usual,” Asians make up 50% of students taking Advanced Placement classes, 90% of the Academic Decathlon team is Asian.
Based on census data, the academic differences don’t appear to be due to economic differences – 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the Lincoln High area have median annual household incomes below $50,000. Basically, the primary reason that is distilled from this informal conversation was unsurprisingly (at least to me), parental expectations as well as peer expectations:
“Many factors influence academic performance: class size, poverty, and school and neighborhood resources. But as the discussions at Lincoln show, expectations loom large… Frank D. Bean, a professor of sociology at UC Irvine’s Center for Research on Immigration, Population and Public Policy, has studied the Mexican work ethic and found that work and education occupy the same pedestal, and in some cases, work is even more valued. “Latino and Asian families in Lincoln Heights were essentially in the same socioeconomic boat, she [UCLA sociology professor Min Zhou] said, but Asian immigrants were more likely to have been more affluent and had better education opportunities in their native countries.”
Now this makes a lot of sense to me, since historically, education has been highly valued in Asian societies. Sadly, especially living in California in Silicon Valley, I really do not know really any Latinos or much about Latino culture. So I don’t know if the comments regarding work vs. education’s value in the Latino community are true.
The article goes on about how teachers give Asian students the benefit-of-the-doubt in a lot of cases, from things like not being as strict with Asian students without hall passes versus Latinos – as well as teachers not necessarily encouraging Latinos to take Advanced Placement courses.
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I wonder if there is a normal socialization process going on for the Asian kids. Are the Asian kids losing out on social experiences because they are so focused on academics, or are they able to focus on academics because the socialization opportunities within the general school population are more limited for them than they might be for the Latino students?
I make this point because so many Asians comment on how they feel a sense of social/political marginalization as adults and I wonder if this is a feeling that has it's roots in their experiences in school?
I agree, this statement is ridiculous.
I am sure this is not just Silicon Valley... People in general tend to socialize with people in their own socio-economic background.
Hell, when I lived in Western Massachusetts, my county was "79.10% White, 8.10% Black or African American, 0.26% Native American, 1.30% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 8.85% from other races, and 2.32% from two or more races. 15.17% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race."
You bet my parents mostly socialized with other Asians.
"be explained by genetic and biological causes"
This particular comment is absolutely absurd, and should occupy blog space relating to something on the order of " Eugenics and how im the master race".
To disregard all of sociology and purly rely on a biological explanation, would be analgous to programming a computer without the use of a keyboard.
It might seem shocking that John doesn't really know any local Silicon Valley Latinos despite the large Latino presence, but it really isn't surprising to me any more. Many of the folks here in the Silicon Valley go to work and then go back to their own enclaves. Outside of work, Silicon Valley is rather segregated. This fact really struck me when I started coaching my daughter's volleyball team, and our bunch of Asian girls would play against teams that were totally white.
I think all these hackneyed notions of peer expectations and parental expectations completely miss the main point of the intrinsic differences between different ethnic groups. Its obviously something which is very un-PC to say, however, all of the statistics and studies in social sciences regarding educational achievement of different groups of people have shown factors when controlling for the environment still show differences which can only be explained by genetic and biological causes.Some open-minded reading by the LA Times journalist and the posters on this blog would be quite enlightening. The most rigorous would be Jensen's "The G Factor" and for starters this paper by Linda Gottfredson
http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2...
I wonder if there is a normal socialization process going on for the Asian kids. Are the Asian kids losing out on social experiences because they are so focused on academics, or are they able to focus on academics because the socialization opportunities within the general school population are more limited for them than they might be for the Latino students?
I make this point because so many Asians comment on how they feel a sense of social/political marginalization as adults and I wonder if this is a feeling that has it's roots in their experiences in school?
I agree, this statement is ridiculous.
I am sure this is not just Silicon Valley... People in general tend to socialize with people in their own socio-economic background.
Hell, when I lived in Western Massachusetts, my county was "79.10% White, 8.10% Black or African American, 0.26% Native American, 1.30% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 8.85% from other races, and 2.32% from two or more races. 15.17% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race."
You bet my parents mostly socialized with other Asians.
"be explained by genetic and biological causes"
This particular comment is absolutely absurd, and should occupy blog space relating to something on the order of " Eugenics and how im the master race".
To disregard all of sociology and purly rely on a biological explanation, would be analgous to programming a computer without the use of a keyboard.
It might seem shocking that John doesn't really know any local Silicon Valley Latinos despite the large Latino presence, but it really isn't surprising to me any more. Many of the folks here in the Silicon Valley go to work and then go back to their own enclaves. Outside of work, Silicon Valley is rather segregated. This fact really struck me when I started coaching my daughter's volleyball team, and our bunch of Asian girls would play against teams that were totally white.
I think all these hackneyed notions of peer expectations and parental expectations completely miss the main point of the intrinsic differences between different ethnic groups. Its obviously something which is very un-PC to say, however, all of the statistics and studies in social sciences regarding educational achievement of different groups of people have shown factors when controlling for the environment still show differences which can only be explained by genetic and biological causes.Some open-minded reading by the LA Times journalist and the posters on this blog would be quite enlightening. The most rigorous would be Jensen's "The G Factor" and for starters this paper by Linda Gottfredson
http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2...
This is funny, because first generational asian and mexican nationals not only excel in academia and in the case of Latinos ( Mexican-americans - California region ) overall better health than there 2nd or 3rd generational counterparts in the United States. Much less to do with race than an underlying social cause that we are not capable of understanding. ( i myslef am a latino computer sci/ premed major at a major univeristy with a 3.8 avg, - out score any asian anglo in my class, "boom".) Whomever reads this form, Im sure is capable of noticing the difference between an Asian or Latino whos parents are first time immigrants and those who are not. One thing I know, and can guarantee is that any immigrant who settles in the United States, and then decides to have a family , that thier 2nd generation will be less ambitious and , less stuidious as the first. It doesn't take long for psuedoamerican culture to corode at any foreign race of people; just watch and take another poll, this second additional poll being more focused at those Asians who have adopted the "thug life", " graffiti" , "wear my cap to the side, im mean ".
Um, my point is exactly what Sunny had blogged about living in China.
Alright, so let's just throw all our ideas about ethnic identity out the window then. We can be anything we want to be.
Anybody can define themselves regardless of what others define them. Of course, one might be treated differently.
It's not my sweeping judgments. It's the articles. Like the original commentator R.Perez said, I just summarize.
You can study all you want in Japan, but don't tell me that gives you the ability to define it as your new ethnic identity. You don't grow up with the culture, you don't live with the culture, you don't look in the mirror and see that culture and you don't get treated certain ways because of that culture.
John,
Your summary of the article above and sweeping judgments make me realize why I know more high-tech Latino millionaires than high-tech Asian millionaires. Thanks! Glad to be out of the Valley :)
Well, I am glad we are not escalating this into an online flame war :-)
I don't know - I think if you know a language, you probably know the culture more as well. Again, my Mexican-American friend grew up in Los Angeles, studied UNDERGRAD in Japan (i.e. 4 years - not just a semester abroad), worked in Japan for like 6 years afterwards or so), and also considered himself to be more Japanese than Latino/Mexican...
The social and my work circles just don't have a lot of Latinos. And relatively, I assume the Bay Area overall's population is divided 50% between men and women, but I know a whole lot more men than women, especially single men to single women - LOL.
Woah buddy, racist guilt trip? Really? I dont think we were headed in that direction so best to steer clear of it. What say you? I merely implied that it would seem strange that living in an area populated with 1 out of every 4 people is Latino you wouldn't have gotten to know a couple, since you've been here for a number of years and all.
PS. props for reading all those papers everyday, I wouldn't do it, but I suppose someone has to.
Thank you Moye, thats exactly what I was trying to say in a MUCH nicer way than I ever would have put it.
I think R's point about language and ethnic identity is that just because your Latino friend knows how to speak fluent Japanese over Spanish doesn't make him more Japanese.
Also, maybe it's your candid comment about not knowing anything about Latinos that grinds his gears. It's a broad statement to make when you're talking about an article that puts Latinos in a bad light (in relation to Asian Americans).
Actually, I do *not* have a webcrawler. I do check out LA Times daily, as well as SF Chronicle, San Jose Mercury, Wall Street Journal and New York Times as well (and Ernie knows I read a lot and sent out lots of stuff besides 8Asians - that is how he decided to recruit me). I also actively do searches on Google. But I do not have Google Alerts for Asian American news (maybe I should).
As far as knowing Latinos - how do we know the people we know - from work and through friends - whom I mostly know from work. I am originally from Western Massachusetts and did not grow up here. So don't try to place some racist guilt trip on me!
As for my Mexican-American friend, he himself considers himself more Japanese than Mexican-American. Don't you think fluency in a language has something to do with ethnic or cultural background and identity?
I wonder what axe you have to grind... geez.
No, I dont get to read the LA Times on the day to day. I would be shocked to find that you do and dont have a web crawler sending you emails everyday with keywords that would bring you such an article.
As for you not knowing Latinos in tech, I respect that. But Latinos make up more than 35% of California's population. 25% in Santa Clara county alone, so unless you live at work your little anecdote about not knowing Latinos doesnt wash. Also, what does the amount of one language someone speaks have to do with their ethnic or cultural background and history? Just curious.
Bad news, Latinos are all very different. But, if weu00e2u0080u0099re making sweeping generalizations I would agree with the comments in the article about Latino parents just wanting their children to have a better life than they had and be happy, I think that is the case in general for all parents. However, doing better than your parents for Latinos usually means graduating high school, so needless to say the bar is set a bit lower. u00e2u0080u009cAsian immigrants were more likely to have been more affluent and had better education opportunities in their native countries.u00e2u0080u009d If you think that all parents want their children to do better than they did, and Asian immigrants came from a more affluence and better education, than they are doing the same thing Latino parents do, just starting from a different place.
u00e2u0080u009cIf her grades slipped, she said, her parents laid on the guilt extra thick. "My parents are always like, 'If you don't do well in school, then it's all going to be worth nothing,' " Karen said, laughing nervously.u00e2u0080u009d
I could never imagine a Latino parent of any of my family members or friends saying something like that to their child. I donu00e2u0080u0099t want to say Latinos value working more than education, but I say only one puts rice on the table.
If you come from a background where the longer you stay in the field the more youu00e2u0080u0099ll have to eat that night, thatu00e2u0080u0099s what you know, and not working wouldnu00e2u0080u0099t make any sense to you. But if you come from a place where you didnu00e2u0080u0099t have to stress so much and didnu00e2u0080u0099t rely on children helping to provide, you may have time to stress education in your downtime. A lot of the time, you canu00e2u0080u0099t suggest or force someone to do something you donu00e2u0080u0099t know about. Didnu00e2u0080u0099t know about education before? Why would you know about it now?
@R. Perez
Yes, many of my posts are summarizing articles, but other posts are more opinionated, like "Study: Americans Expect Business Leaders to Be White," or "Did I tell you, I am a sleeper agent for Communist China?" As for my summarization posts - my goal is to expose articles to those who might not come across them. If I had not posted on "LA Times: Why do Asian students generally get higher marks than Latinos?" - would you have come across the article - probably not unless you read the LA Times.
As for ignoring a big population of this state - well, sadly, the fact is I work and live in Silicon Valley and work in the tech industry and there are not a lot of Latinos (or African Americans for that matter) in tech. I do have a very good Mexican-American friend (and former co-worker), but he is more Japanese than Latino (he went to Japan for undergrad and is fluent in Japanese and knows very little Spanish). And he is currently on vacation in Hawaii and generally a hard person to get a hold of - so I didn't try to solicit his opinion.
This isnu00e2u0080u0099t the full article, so I can only comment on what has been posted. Stereotypes are out there regardless of whether or not it is PC. I think teachers and school officials have a higher expectation of Asian students and don't encourage Latinos to join advanced classes. I went to a predominately Mexican school so I didn't experience that, but I can see how it happens.
Also I think that Asian parents do set a higher expectation on grades than Latinos. Latinos expect you to work hard at everything you do, but they don't necessarily punish you for getting bad grades if they know you did your best. That may be a stereotype, but from the Asian people (yes people, not just one) I know that is what they experienced.
I am Mexican and my parents always stressed the importance of an education, getting into a good college and even encouraged to me to pursue post graduate work. I graduating third in my high school class, but I know that my parents wouldnu00e2u0080u0099t have punished me if I had been a C-student as long as I had put in the effort and done my best.
Awesome that you've been reading since Day One. :)
So, are the comments regarding work versus educational value in the Latino community true? Don't forget, you're speaking on behalf of all Latinos! (OK, there's a little bit of sarcasm to that, but is there a non-PC way of saying "It's because Asian parents scream and judge at them if they get B" without offending anyone?)
As a loyal Latino reader of the 8A blog (since day 1 mind you), I'm not sure if I am offended or totally stupefied by your latest post. Other than half heartedly summarizing the article someone else wrote, which is what most of your posts seem to be, you really draw no conclusions on your own do you? Other than admitting that you seem to be actively ignoring a massive chunk of the population in the state you live in, I donu00e2u0080u0099t see any reason for your post. Mostly I wonder why exactly you post about subjects you admit in the same entry you know nothing about. Granted, blogs are personal for the most part opinion based and I respect that, however what I donu00e2u0080u0099t understand is why you didnu00e2u0080u0099t hand this or other subjects off to other 8A writers that actually do have a connection to the Latino community. Maybe one day, youu00e2u0080u0099ll meet a Latino or befriend one and the stereotypical notions you hold of us may be changed and youu00e2u0080u0099ll actually have a leg to stand on when you u00e2u0080u009cpostu00e2u0080u009d (cause lord knows I wouldnu00e2u0080u0099t call what you do u00e2u0080u0098bloggingu00e2u0080u0099) articles like this in the future.
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