Back in my undergrad days, I once found some members of an Asian-American Students Association having noodles in one of the dorm kitchens. All of the guys were sitting down waiting to be served, while all of the women were working in the kitchen cooking. “Why aren’t you helping?” I asked the guys. “Ssh! They might hear you!” was their reply.
Some Asian-American men complain that many Asian-American women won’t have anything to do with them. They cite media stereotypes as a cause, and yes, I’d say those are definitely one cause. But another reason, not often admitted, is Asian-American men behaving badly. It can be like the opening example, or it can be during a date, such as this one reenacted by NDtitanLady.
Those are relatively mild examples of bad behavior. As a comparison, let’s look at Jon Gosselin, from Jon and Kate plus 8, the reality show on TLC about a couple and their eight kids. The tabloids have been all over him, accusing of him of having an affair with a third grade teacher. Here is a picture of him was some young college students in a bar whose parties he crashed. Jon doesn’t admit to cheating on his wife, but cites “bad judgment” on his part. Looks like Jon doesn’t have the problem of white girls not having anything to do with him, but he does seem to have the problem of turning red when he drinks.
Jon isn’t alone in cheating. I know a number of Asian husbands who have cheated on their wives. I have heard how a cheating husband infected his wife with diseases picked up on a tryst. In the Philippines, there is a tradition of men having mistresses and even maintaining separate households of those mistresses and their children.
One of my ex-girlfriends had to get a restraining order against her former Asian boyfriend. I know a fair amount of of Asian-American women who end up with white guys after getting treated like dirt by former Asian boyfriends. “I’ll never date an Asian again.” said The Daughter’s Asian friend. She went on to describe a bad date with an Asian guy. I wonder if it was one bad date that lead her to want to avoid Asian guys, or perhaps her father’s multiple infidelities that lead to her parents divorce that contributed to that statement.
While these examples do break the stereotype of meek, studious, traditional Asian-American that this woman in particular seems to like, it is not a positive development. I am not saying that all Asian-American males are scum either. I am saying that while we as Asian-American males may not have control over media stereotypes affecting how women look at us, one thing we can do that is in our control is to make sure we are not behaving badly.
What next?
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36 Comments to “Asian Males Behaving Badly”
mengele wrote:
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Posted on 25-May-09 at 11:40 pm | Permalink
Tien Nguyen wrote:
Breaking news: white men, black men, mexican men, middle eastern men, etc., cheat and mistreat their wives all the time.
If the point of this post is to say that a certain number of Asian men are not that different from others then yes I might agree with it–but if it’s to portray “us” in a worse light as others, then I’d have to disagree.
I don’t have statistics to back this up, but I would put money on the fact that Asian men in America are overall more faithful to their wives, are less likely to beat them, than the whites, blacks, etc out there.
Asians are generally very family oriented and place an important value on marriage. I can guarantee you that for every girl that’s had a bad date with an Asian guy there’s at least 10 non-Asian guys who a girl would consider him to be her worst.date.ever.
Posted on 25-May-09 at 11:59 pm | Permalink
Confuse-Us wrote:
I don’t think that I agree with much of this post. Despite the disclaimer, you seem to be saying that Asian men as a group are rejected because some of them are imperfect. That seems nonsensical to me. If we follow the logic of the post to it’s logical conclusion, by saying that Asian women end up with white men because of asshole Asian men must be to imply that black and Hispanic men are rejected for the same reasons, but to say that would be considered racist wouldn’t it? The only conclusion that one could draw from this post is that white men as a group are superior to all others in terms of sexual morality and personal integrity. Is that what you or the Asian women you cite actually believe?
The biggest issue I have have with this post is the hearsay link about Filipino men having more than one family running concurrently. That’s a pretty major put down for which I would at least have hoped you would provide more substantial evidence than you actually did. This is sad because in the Phillipines divorce is illegal and is forbidden by both church and state and this may well have something to do with the phenomenon you describe, if it is in fact a reality.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 12:57 am | Permalink
Dan wrote:
It just looks like you just want to post about the Jon and Kate thing and the youtube video but have nothing to say so try to tie it in with The Big One in a way that would make people all riled up.
You have a link to TLC that just goes to the TLC main page yet a link that goes straight to the Jon and Kate show page, which makes the TLC link pretty pointless, and a link to a Yahoo answers where the answers given don’t even confirm Filipino men have such a tradition of having mistresses.
Is this just some sort of experiment to see how we react to common arguments against Asian males in terms of relationships using a few questionable supporting sources(Jon and Kate, entertainment youtube video, yahoo answers link most would not check), unconfirmable anecdotes, and a closing statement that tries to make the author look objective? I mean, you guys write better than this.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 1:06 am | Permalink
Chris wrote:
The tried and trued method of attracting more viewers is to create blog entries with a little dose of sensationalism. Journalism at its finest.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 3:29 am | Permalink
YvesPaul wrote:
Have you seen that castrating bitch that is Kate? I personally don’t watch the show but E!’s The Soup and VH1’s Best Week Ever have clips of her yelling and controlling Jon all the time prior to the bar incident. I say good for Jon, if it’s not for the 8 kids, he should have left Kate a long time ago.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 6:38 am | Permalink
Xxxtine wrote:
The whole thing about keeping mistresses in the Philippines is VERY VERY real. Both my grandfather’s had mistresses and my parents grew up with half-brothers and sisters – except in their case, they were all under the same roof. My dad recently went back and found out that his cousins/ best friends all had mistresses. They actually looked down on him for only having one wife.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 7:45 am | Permalink
aj wrote:
I think Tien nailed it with the second comment. In replacement of “bad” asian males, women will find men who JUST HAPPEN to be white…yeah ok. Oh Jeff, I actually thought you were one of the few on this site who didn’t subtlety play into this anti- straight asian men bias. Because that seems to be the ridiculous stance at 8asians: hey lets not have a heated debated on IR but just for good measure, we’ll take shots at straight asian men now and then. I have already commented on this on a previous comment, but I’ll be more than happy to back up my claims, ending with Jeff’s post as the most recent example.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 8:30 am | Permalink
Allen wrote:
Agree with the comments, it’s sensationalist and as Tien mentions, it ignores the fact that in every culture there are men who behave badly.
That said, there’s some kernel of truth to the fact that minorities often get generalized/labelled based on a first experience. You’ll never hear someone say “I went on a date with a Swedish guy and he was horrible, all Swedish guys must be horrible”, but somehow that logic makes sense for Asians because it “must be part of our culture.” Obviously wildly wrong, but still something minorities have to deal with.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 8:41 am | Permalink
Allen wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but in the NDTitanLady video, did she ever say the guy was Asian?
Posted on 26-May-09 at 9:11 am | Permalink
Tien Nguyen wrote:
“That said, there’s some kernel of truth to the fact that minorities often get generalized/labelled based on a first experience. ”
Definitely true–when you’re “rarer” then people will come to an immediate conclusion among all people of your type.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 10:41 am | Permalink
John wrote:
Hmm…. I thought the posting was going to be more focused on the paparazzi on Jon and Kate plus 8.
I saw the Season 5 premiere last night. I’m sure when Jon & Kate first signed up for the TV show on TLC, they were not expecting it to be a huge hit. Now they have to live with the unfortunate unintended consequences of their “success.”
Most reality TV shows or series usually highlight new contestants every season (Survivor, Amazing Race, The Real World, etc…). Maybe the best thing for Jon and Kate are to quit the show or take a break… but they are probably making too much money off of TLC right now… and vice versa…
Posted on 26-May-09 at 11:17 am | Permalink
John wrote:
‘Jon & Kate Plus 8′ season 5 premiere shatters TLC records
May 26, 2009, 02:45 PM | by Lynette Rice
The heavily promoted fifth-season premiere of Jon & Kate Plus 8 posted record ratings for TLC on Memorial Day. The hour-long episode — in which tabloid cover queen Kate Gosselin admitted, “I have a lot of anger…this is not what I envisioned for us” — attracted a whopping 9.8 million viewers, which more than doubled the audience that tuned into the show’s season 4 finale in March (4.6 million). The premiere, which also lured unprecedented numbers of women aged 18-34 and women 18-49, was TLC’s (and Jon & Kate’s) most-watched episode ever.
http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2009/05/jon-kate-plus-8.html
Posted on 26-May-09 at 11:25 am | Permalink
jaehwan wrote:
Jeff:
““I’ll never date an Asian again.” said The Daughter’s Asian friend. She went on to describe a bad date with an Asian guy. I wonder if it was one bad date that lead her to want to avoid Asian guys, or perhaps her father’s multiple infidelities that lead to her parents divorce that contributed to that statement.”
Maybe racism contributed to that statement. Seriously, who has one bad experience with a minority member and then labels the entire race.
Allen:
“Maybe I missed it, but in the NDTitanLady video, did she ever say the guy was Asian?”
It could be just the typecasting. You know, inventiveness, according to Hollywood, is a White trait, so the lead roles in 21 had to be cast with White male actors, and poor social skills, according to the same powers that be, are an Asian male trait, so they had to cast her date as Asian.
I’m just kidding. I didn’t understand the point of your post, Jeff, but I actually enjoyed NDtitanLady’s video very much. So thanks for posting it.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 4:25 pm | Permalink
guest wrote:
lol. I really don’t get the Yahoo Answers link.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 5:08 pm | Permalink
Ed wrote:
Shame on these disgrasian’s for sabotaging the dignity of asian males.
I can only hope people don’t generalize or racialize them (too late),
People are going to hold the rest of us accountable for their crimes!
So after watching the media ove rthe last 2 weeks I’ve come across 4 anti-asian male in IR articles.
Makes me suspicious, is someone trying to reinforce gendered racism again?
Posted on 26-May-09 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
RR wrote:
quote: I know a fair amount of of Asian-American women who end up with white guys after getting treated like dirt by former Asian boyfriends. “I’ll never date an Asian again.” said The Daughter’s Asian friend. She went on to describe a bad date with an Asian guy. I wonder if it was one bad date that lead her to want to avoid Asian guys, or perhaps her father’s multiple infidelities that lead to her parents divorce that contributed to that statement. end quote
And yet you’ll never meet an Asian woman who will swear off white guys for doing the same. Those women you know were already looking for an excuse to sell us out and you’re just an apologist for their auto-racism.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 5:32 pm | Permalink
RR wrote:
aj wrote:
I think Tien nailed it with the second comment. In replacement of “bad” asian males, women will find men who JUST HAPPEN to be white…yeah ok. Oh Jeff, I actually thought you were one of the few on this site who didn’t subtlety play into this anti- straight asian men bias. Because that seems to be the ridiculous stance at 8asians: hey lets not have a heated debated on IR but just for good measure, we’ll take shots at straight asian men now and then. I have already commented on this on a previous comment, but I’ll be more than happy to back up my claims, ending with Jeff’s post as the most recent example.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 8:30 am | Permalink
I was wondering if anyone else would clue in on that.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 5:35 pm | Permalink
Alvin wrote:
1. Sure you can find examples of Asian or AA males behaving ‘badly’, *but as a group not* any more badly or differently from any other race of men. In fact based on stats Asian males in America, among ALL males in America, have the lowest rates of spousal abuse, violence, murders, child molestation, and rape. This is just a fake excuse, under cognitive dissonance, to justify White worshiping and self hating behavior among some Asian women, and also some majorly brainwashed, apologist AA guys.
2. The writer buys into the garbage ‘Asians are more sexist than other males’ MYTH that’s been perpetuated and ingrained into everyone’s mind in Western cultures. I’ve seen way more AA men in fair partnerships/relationships with their wives or gf’s than White males. I’ve also come across way more married Asian male classmates this past year, than married White classmates, who do most of the cooking and cleaning in the household.
3. The writer clearly misses the part about Jon+Kate where: (1) Jon actually does tons if not most of the child rearing, along with assistants, as Kate admitted on the show she’s almost never at home and travels all the time now; (2) Kate’s own brother went on camera and said that he thinks Kate’s been having an affair with her bodyguard for over a year.
I would guess that guys like the blog writer are all very typical/similar. I’d bet $100 the guy in real life sounds extremely effeminate, overly friendly, and is probably very similar to that brother on ‘Amazing Race’. These AA guys basically buy into the Amy Tan bullshit, and as a result to compensate think they need to act like overly friendly, asexual, non-threatening eunuchs in order to fit into this society.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 6:15 pm | Permalink
guest wrote:
I wonder what ideas and pointers were given by John, Moye, and Tim (who speaks perfect english by the way).
Posted on 26-May-09 at 6:33 pm | Permalink
John wrote:
My idea was that someone post about ‘Jon & Kate Plus 8′ since the new season premiere was coming up and Jon & Kate were in the tabloids, and I had originally thought that Jeff had blogged about the show (I swear I read a posting on 8Asians about the show). I don’t know if Jon is an “Asian male behaving badly” – are we supposed to trust the tabloids?
Posted on 26-May-09 at 7:51 pm | Permalink
Ed wrote:
never trust the tabloids, tabloids are for entertainment and gossip and not journalism.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 10:45 pm | Permalink
Tim wrote:
@Guest: On the 8asians internal mailing list, we mail each other copies of recent news articles and posts that we think will be of interest to others on the list, and may be useful to write a future article on 8asians. Jeff took advantage of a few of these shared articles in his posting. I don’t know about speaking “perfect” English, but I do speak perfectly unaccented California English, but my grammar probably isn’t so good.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 11:11 am | Permalink
Akrypti wrote:
If I understand Jeff correctly, he is simply raising another *possible factor* to the Asian woman’s partiality for dating white. And that point is a good one, irrespective of any latent (or not latent) post-colonial internalizing of white love. “Not all Asian men are like this,” says the peanut gallery. So what? I don’t recall Jeff declaring absolutes. This is another *possible factor* to entertain. And why not entertain it? Is it so taboo for us to address the issue of “Asian males behaving badly”?
Tien Nguyen: “Asian men in America are overall more faithful to their wives, are less likely to beat them, than the whites, blacks, etc.”
We don’t need statistics. I don’t think un-scientific un-empirical anecdotal evidence can even support this contention.
AJ: “Oh Jeff, I actually thought you were one of the few on this site who didn’t subtlety [sic] play into this anti- straight asian men bias. Because that seems to be the ridiculous stance at 8asians.”
So Jeff has an anti-straight Asian men bias because he criticized straight Asian men? Your fallacies aren’t adding to the dialogue here.
Allen: “it’s sensationalist and as Tien mentions, it ignores the fact that in every culture there are men who behave badly.”
A review of the dictionary definition of “sensationalist” and all derivatives thereof leads me to conclude that Jeff’s posting here is not sensationalist.
Does the circumstance that there are men in every culture who behave badly excuse Asian men from behaving badly and therefore renders nugatory any special attention we might care to pay to Asian men behaving badly? There are bad apples in every barrel. So what? I don’t fully understand how that generalization refutes Jeff’s point.
Jaehwan: “Maybe racism contributed to that statement. Seriously, who has one bad experience with a minority member and then labels the entire race.”
A little girl gets her heart broken and during a fit of emotion, makes one sweeping generalization, and now we adults on the blogosphere are accusing her of being racist? I don’t think it’s just “one bad experience.” It had to be multiple bad experiences that happened to this poor girl and at some point, she put up walls and defense mechanisms that told her “I don’t want to suffer like my Mom.” A logical fallacy on the little’s girl part? Maybe. But life isn’t about philosophical reasoning all the time, my dear friend; sometimes it’s just about survival, protecting ourselves from getting hurt.
Ed: “Shame on these disgrasian’s for sabotaging the dignity of asian males.”
Are you hearing yourself?
RR: “And yet you’ll never meet an Asian woman who will swear off white guys for doing the same.”
I did.
Alvin: “I’d bet $100 the guy in real life sounds extremely effeminate, overly friendly . . . to compensate think they need to act like overly friendly, asexual, non-threatening eunuchs in order to fit in”
Ernie, does 8Asians have a PayPal account? Alvin is ready to transfer $100 over to us.
Jeff is extremely masculine, a reserved man of little words, could be intimidating if ever need be, and considering he has children and a beautiful wife, is far from being a eunuch.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 6:48 pm | Permalink
BumScientist wrote:
If you don’t like stereotypes, then it is your job to break them. Someone may judge you on them, but after actual interaction, they may change their mind. We should make love and not war. That way we will understand each other. People are people. Open your hearts and minds. It’s all about world peach!
Posted on 27-May-09 at 7:50 pm | Permalink
guest wrote:
[If I understand Jeff correctly, he is simply raising another *possible factor* to the Asian woman’s partiality for dating white. And that point is a good one, irrespective of any latent (or not latent) post-colonial internalizing of white love. “Not all Asian men are like this,” says the peanut gallery. So what? I don’t recall Jeff declaring absolutes. This is another *possible factor* to entertain. And why not entertain it? Is it so taboo for us to address the issue of “Asian males behaving badly”?]
No, you don’t understand correctly, and you’re being apologetic, which is the theme of 8 Asians. There’s a difference between acknowledging bad behavior from Asian men [which obviously exists and should be addressed] and using it as a justification for why Asian women date out.
If he truly wanted to point out the issue of bad behavior from Asian men, he should have cited culturally specific behavior, not everyday crap behavior applicable to every race, like not opening doors for women, being lazy, and cheating on your wife. And he should have left out the IR disparity. Using a half Asian/half white reality TV celebrity as an example is even dumber, especially when there are reports that his wife was also cheating on him. And what is with the Yahoo Answers link? Lol. Is he trying to refute his own argument?
And for Asian women who dismiss Asian men because of one or several bad relationships or bad relationships with their fathers, the more important question to ask is why aren’t white women who go through the same thing going for Asian men in significant numbers? Wow, I wish I had the privilege of not being stereotyped by people of my own race for something out of my control.
[Does the circumstance that there are men in every culture who behave badly excuse Asian men from behaving badly and therefore renders nugatory any special attention we might care to pay to Asian men behaving badly? There are bad apples in every barrel. So what? I don’t fully understand how that generalization refutes Jeff’s point.]
It doesn’t excuse bad behavior, but it does invalidate the idea that Asian women are justified in preferring another race because of bad behavior from Asian men, which is the underlying idea in Jeff’s piece. Do you think Asian men behave any worse that men of other races? And what about when Asian women who date exclusively white say that Asian men are too clingy and too safe? Is this also a problem that Asian men should fix? Is there an elusive middle ground?
Good luck with raising your kid, Jeff.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 8:12 pm | Permalink
Confuse-Us wrote:
Jeff is extremely masculine, a reserved man of little words, could be intimidating if ever need be, and considering he has children and a beautiful wife, is far from being a eunuch.
Wow, I’m starting to feel the stirrings of man-love for Jeff. It almost makes me want to start a secret family with him.
Posted on 28-May-09 at 12:37 am | Permalink
jaehwan wrote:
Hey Akrypti:
We spoke about this this morning, so hopefully I’m not speaking out of turn!
“A little girl gets her heart broken and during a fit of emotion, makes one sweeping generalization, and now we adults on the blogosphere are accusing her of being racist?”
Maybe Jeff can clarify, but from the description, it doesn’t seem like she was speaking in a fit of emotion. From his description, it sounds like he was talking after the fact, when she was settled and rational. Let me ask you this. When you were younger, and you had a bad experience dating an Asian guy, did you say, “I’ll never date an Asian guy again?” If you got into an argument with a black person, did you say, “Man, I don’t like black people, and I’d rather only associate with Whites?”
Is this any different? When I was younger, I had crazy, crazy, CRAZY bad experiences with SOME Asian women (you wouldn’t believe some of the craziness), but never once did I blame the entire race. (That, and I like Asian women.
)
“I don’t think it’s just “one bad experience.” It had to be multiple bad experiences that happened to this poor girl and at some point, she put up walls and defense mechanisms that told her “I don’t want to suffer like my Mom.” A logical fallacy on the little’s girl part? Maybe. But life isn’t about philosophical reasoning all the time, my dear friend; sometimes it’s just about survival, protecting ourselves from getting hurt.”
It’s possible that she had multiple bad experiences. Maybe Jeff can clarify.
In any case, I’m not blaming the girl for being prejudiced against Asian men. We all live in the same society, and we all adopt the values of our society, even if they are values I don’t agree with. But I do think it should be challenged. Why are we always so quick to blame our own?
I also agree with the point that you made about needing the freedom to challenge our culture. It should be fair to question whether Asian men truly have a problem. If there’s a problem, of course I would want to fix it! In order to see if it’s a racial/cultural thing, however, we need to be willing to extend the analysis to include control groups, comparison groups, etc. If we were to make statements about other groups, we would extend this fairness to them, so I think it’s only right to extend the same fairness to ourselves.
Posted on 28-May-09 at 9:05 am | Permalink
SaBinh Thach wrote:
not all Asian men do that
Posted on 10-Jun-09 at 9:15 pm | Permalink
nemogbr wrote:
From what I gather, in all cultures, extra-marital affairs would happen if the persons involved have the time, opportunity. Afterwards to have another family would mean an income that would allow the person to support both.
Have to ask where the heck does your family come from?
I have uncles in the Philippines and as far as I know, they don't have mistresses and I would have been told.
Posted on 11-Jun-09 at 6:59 am | Permalink
nemogbr wrote:
Hey man,
Remember we like to dominate and subjugate our women.
At the same time, we are too effeminate so Asian women prefer other races.
Reading both points at the same time and the mind boggles.
Posted on 11-Jun-09 at 7:01 am | Permalink
nemogbr wrote:
Managed to watch the video. A few things that are incongrous.
What woman would wait two hours for her date to show up?
Then:
He didn't open the door
He played loud music whilst driving
Didn't open the door and asked her why she was waiting.
Didn't have money for the date.
I've never known any of my male friends do this.
The man looks like a complete chump or is this her cousin??
Posted on 12-Jun-09 at 3:05 am | Permalink
nemogbr wrote:
Managed to watch the video. A few things that are incongrous.
What woman would wait two hours for her date to show up?
Then:
He didn't open the door
He played loud music whilst driving
Didn't open the door and asked her why she was waiting.
Didn't have money for the date.
I've never known any of my male friends do this.
The man looks like a complete chump or is this her cousin??
Posted on 12-Jun-09 at 3:24 am | Permalink
facebook-881645042 wrote:
It isn't exactly a proud thing to declare that your father/ uncle/ grandfather has mistresses. Particularly in the Philippines since it IS illegal. Both my parents actually felt shame growing up because of it, even if they were children from the first wife.
If you're asking where my parents are from, they were both born and raised in the Philippines, Cagayan and Manila. Currently, no one in my family immediate family in the Philippines that I know of has mistresses or at least outwardly declares it or refers to it in such a manner. My dad told me otherwise and only realized when he visited.
Posted on 12-Jun-09 at 8:11 am | Permalink
nemogbr wrote:
I was just thinking of the laws. My Aunt would have been regarded as a bigamist, due to separating from her then husband and remarrying in Britain.
Perhaps due to the illegality of divorce, separated people have no choice, but to regard the second mother as the mistress. If they had divorced, both parties could have remarried.
I have known, of one relative, who had two wives and the acrimony during his funeral between the children of the two respective mothers.
Posted on 12-Jun-09 at 9:25 am | Permalink
Lina Inverse wrote:
As a white girl who has dated several Asian men (along with numerous white men) I can't say that any of my ex bfs behaved in a stereotypically “Asian” fashion. The closest one got was wanting me to cook and clean for him. I explained to him that this wasn't going to happen and we agreed to get a cleaning lady if we would ever move in together. However, I don't think that's an exclusively Asian thing, as many men want a “little woman” and many women want to land a man who makes enough to let them stay at home and take care of the house and kids.
And I have to say that Kate is pretty mean. I feel bad for Jon having to put up with her for so many years. However, it is partly his fault for not standing up for himself.
Posted on 28-Sep-09 at 1:49 am | Permalink
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