PSA: Write in “Taiwanese” on the 2010 US Census

By John | Monday, March 8, 2010 | View Comments

Recently, the Taiwanese American Citizens League (TACL), TaiwaneseAmerican.org, Taiwanese American Foundation, TACL-LYF: Leading Youth Forward, Taiwanese American Professionals – San Francisco (TAP-SF), Taiwanese American Federation of Northern California helped produce this Public Service Announcement (PSA), advocating for all Taiwanese Americans to self-identify for the 2010 U.S. census taking place in April as “Other Asian” and write in “Taiwanese.”

For more information about the PSA, check out http://taiwaneseamerican.org/census2010/ , where you can learn about the Taiwanese Americans in the PSA, including California State Assemblyman and California Attorney General candidate Ted Lieu.

According to TACL, the 2000 estimates of Taiwanese Americans are 1.12 million (in the census 2000, only 144,795 Taiwanese Americans were recorded an under count by almost 90%. The U.S. Constitution requires a national census once every 10 years and census forms will be mailed to every household in March & Census Day is April1, 2010. The census counts EVERYONE residing in the United States (including non-citizens & international students.) The census is confidential – your responses are protected by law under Title 13, U.S. code, Section 9 and only takes 10 minutes to fill. The census data is important because it directly affects how more than $300 BILLION per year in federal and state funding is allocated to communities & non-profit organizations. That’s more than $3 TRILLION DOLLARS over the 10-year period.

After the jump, you can read more about my rant on being a Taiwanese American and why it matters.

Growing up, as part of my upbringing, always identified as a Taiwanese American rather than a Chinese American. Both my father’s and mother’s side of the family had been in Taiwan for hundreds of years and spoke Taiwanese (as well as Mandarin – they would speak to my brother and I in Mandarin for us to get the maximum benefit of learning the most populous language and Taiwanese when they wanted to keep their conversations “secret”). I remember my father often having to explain the difference between Taiwan and China, and that the U.S. official stance was the “One China” policy, and how the United Nations switch recognition of “China” from the Republic of China (ROC – Taiwan) to the People’s Republic of China (PRC – mainland China), and the United States officially recognizing the PRC over ROC diplomatically in 1979.

However, what really galvanized me as an adult to self-identify as a Taiwanese American was when in 1995 I attended an ITASA conference at Harvard and heard a speech entitled, “How I Became a Taiwanese-American and why It Matters.” What really got me in the speech was this:

“Just start telling me that “Taiwanese” is “the same thing” as “Chinese” and I would feel blood rising to my head … Moreover, it seemed so unfair that other people could say they were Korean or Italian or Egyptian and no one would try to tell them that they were something else. It was incredible to me that people who knew nothing about my background and even less about Taiwanese history would try to argue with me about my claim to a Taiwanese identity… We must realize that if we do not make the distinction between Taiwanese and Chinese, then nobody will do it for us. To take it another step further, if you don’t determine your own identity, then it will be imposed upon you, as Taiwan’s history has demonstrated time and time again.”

In the past, I would tell others that being Taiwanese and Chinese was basically the same thing, just to make things simple and not having to explain the whole diplomatic history and differences between the two countries, because in most contexts, it’s hard to explain in just a sentence or two (but I would say that my parents were from Taiwan – to make the distinction that they were not from Hong Kong or mainland China). But since that speech, I’ve gone out of my way to make sure to identify as Taiwanese American, and explain the differences if questions did come up.

I really do think there is a real distinction between being a Taiwanese Americans and Chinese Americans – everything from linguistically (Taiwanese vs. Mandarin, Cantonese, etc.) to the overall immigrant experience. Most of the Taiwanese Americans I know of my age and generation, their parents immigrated to the United States in the 1960s to study for an advance degree and then chose to remain in the U.S. At the time, there weren’t that many Chinese from mainland China (PRC), immigrating to the U.S. (as that was during the Cultural Revolution). Since I only knew Mandarin, I could barely communicate with my grandparents, because they only spoke Taiwanese or Japanese (due to the 50 years of Japanese occupation from 1895 to 1945).

Even in college, I noticed differences from those who self identified as Hong Kongese-American – from the way they spoke in Catonese to the way they acted and hung out with each other. To be honest, I don’t think I even knew any Chinese Americans except for maybe some graduate students who were from mainland China (this was in the late 80s and early 90s).

I like to think that being Taiwanese that we can have the best of both worlds – having a Chinese heritage, taking the best of Chinese culture, and building upon that tradition along with unique differences and history of Taiwan. In fact, I think Taiwan takes the best of China without the bad baggage. Without Taiwan, Traditional Chinese, which has thousands of years of history, may have not been preserved as well as it is today, as well as the historic treasures of China were safe from the Red Guard in Taipei’s National Palace Museum. Although Taiwan, the country, may not be diplomatically recognized by the United Nations or by most nations, it is a defacto independent country. Taiwan has its own unique language, culture, cuisine, democratically elected government, Olympic team (“Chinese Taipei“) and independent currency, just to name a few things that make Taiwan unique.

Historically, most Taiwanese have ethnic roots that emigrated to Taiwan from the mainland several hundred years ago. But much like the British who settled Australia, I doubt most Australians think of themselves as British or English. Self-identifying as a Taiwanese American is important in the census and does have consequences – everything from having the right number of government forms available for translation (in Traditional Chinese – especially for older immigrants who come over with their adult children), addressing health issues specific to the Taiwanese community and to of course, politically. So check “Other Asian” and write in “Taiwanese.” Be counted. Be recognized. Spread the word!

What next?

Other posts you may be interested in:

NOTE: 8Asians.com is a community, and we thank you for being a part of it. While we welcome and appreciate differences in opinion, if you're rude or you're promoting spam, we have a right to edit or delete your comment. Read our comment policy for more information.

Philip

Here's a question:

Let's just say the PRC was no longer a communist country and changed to a democracy, do you think Taiwanese would continue to insist on the Taiwanese label? or would they want to be considered as part of China?

This struggle between Taiwanese vs Chinese seems more like a political struggle and for certain people, more about social status. Similar to how some might identify themselves as being from Hong Kong and not China still today.

I think this is a very interesting conversation and raises a few questions.

Let's compare this to similar Asian countries and see if the same would apply:.

If South Koreans no longer considered themselves as Koreans, because they kept being compared to the the communist North Koreans...and decided to change the name of their country and people, would anyone here complain?

Would people understand if South Vietnamese now considered themselves as "Saigonese" and no longer Vietnamese because of their different views against the Vietnamese communist?
realmememe

By the way, there are a couple of things we need to understand -

One, "Chinese" does not mean "People from China".

Two, "China" does not mean "PRC, the government".
maxfieldt

I totally agree on this statement.

People who recently immigrated from China and Taiwan seem to forget that there's been Chinese immigration going on for many generations now. There are Overseas Chinese in Singapore, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc with different dialects and cultures. Yet they still consider themselves Chinese.

Being Chinese isn't just about nationality, it's an ethnicity. We're all still Han. People from Taiwan seem to have forgotten that.
realmememe

Here is the actual form: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2009/questionnaire....

The question you need to answer is "What is this person's race?" In the answers there are:

- White (not German white & English white & Australian white & etc)
- Black
- American Indian
and so on.

Since when "Taiwanese" is a RACE?
Guest

I am technically Taiwanese-American, because I am a native-born American citizen, but I have spent nearly my entire life in Taiwan. I hope I can provide a different perspective.

Among Taiwanese, the identity question is hazy and unsettled, but it has definitely dropped in importance, compared to two decades ago. Everyone knows the history, and it's pretty clear that Taiwanese culture is an off-shoot of Chinese culture, but is also unique in its own ways, particularly given the history. Whether Taiwan should be independent of China, or whether Taiwanese are Chinese, is a question of opinion. The facts can be used to support either side. Everyone understands this.

Further, there is no question that Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese are different. Anyone who grows up in either country can tell the difference, instantly. You just have to open your mouth. The accent, the slang, the mannerisms, even the fashion sense is different. This may change in 50 years, but for the foreseeable future, there is no question who is who.

Finally, Taiwanese are coming to a more sophisticated understanding of Taiwanese uniqueness. We are starting to appreciate the cultural impact of the Japanese and the Cold War US, as well as the aboriginal tribes. Taiwanese cultural history is being explored in a fresh and new way.

All these things make Taiwanese very secure in our cultural identity. Being labeled as Chinese by Americans doesn't particularly bother us (except in questions of national security). This is because compared to the greater American population, we are indeed very similar, and our differences, which are mostly only apparent to fellow northeast Asians, can be handled "in-house."

By contrast, the difference between Taiwanese-Americans and Chinese-Americans is very small, because they both mirror mainstream American culture (or the amorphous “Asian-American” culture, whatever that is). This makes identity arguments between Taiwanese-Americans and Chinese-Americans more bitter. This is because the average Taiwanese-American has an insufficient understanding of the Taiwanese culture from which the argument for Taiwanese uniqueness is made. From what I have seen, these territorial identity fights always end in symbolic tokenism. Taiwanese-American organizations will always have 2/28, pearl milk tea, Jay Chou, and a green color scheme. When they want to do a pan-Asian-American activity, there will be karaoke and mah-jongg. It’s depressingly predictable.

The Taiwanese-American community is at a crossroads. American-born Taiwanese, who grew up essentially alone in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, is starting to bump elbows with the American-born Chinese, whom now come from immigrant families who are just as wealthy and culturally sophisticated as their own. If the Taiwanese-American community seeks to differentiate itself from Chinese-Americans, it can’t be by fiat. It’s not enough to just write in “Taiwanese” on census forms. You must actually be materially different to be recognized as different.

But one must ask, is the Taiwanese-American really any different from a Chinese-American? If not, why does it matter? And why are Chinese-Americans so eager to erase the distinctions between Taiwan and China? I think, in general, there must be a de-escalation. Millions of Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese work and do business with each other every day. We might disagree about whether Taiwan should be independent, or whether Taiwanese are also Chinese, but no one questions that Taiwanese are different, or that Taiwan is different. I think Taiwanese-Americans must reach a similar accommodation. Are you different, and why does it matter?
johnklin

Thank you for your perspectives. I found them to be quite interesting. I was mostly amused be your comment, "From what I have seen, these territorial identity fights always end in symbolic tokenism. Taiwanese-American organizations will always have 2/28, pearl milk tea, Jay Chou, and a green color scheme. When they want to do a pan-Asian-American activity, there will be karaoke and mah-jongg. It’s depressingly predictable."

To a certain degree, I agree. My overall point is that individuals have a right to self-identify themselves. This may differ in different contexts. All those who are American citizens, whether or not we were born her or naturalized here, can identify as Americans. As a Californian or Texan, I might self identify as from that state in a different context.

While growing up in the 70s and 80s, and as I had blogged, I really do feel there is a different immigrant experience and cultural upbringing than those whose parents were originally from mainland China or Hong Kong. If someone whose parents did come from Taiwan want to identify as Chinese Americans, that is their choice. I am just making the case that one should consider the case for Taiwanese American.

As for the amorphous “Asian American” identity - I think that is more for practical political-related purposes.
Guest

I see. I guess I'm speaking from an outside perspective. The differences between Chinese-Americans and Taiwanese-Americans are very small when compared with the differences between Chinese and Chinese-Americans or Taiwanese and Taiwanese-Americans. To take my own example, I feel the greatest kinship with Taiwanese, but also greater kinship with immigrant Chinese than Taiwanese-Americans. It's simply a question of cultural proximity.

Self-identification is fine and good, but not effective unless widely-recognized. I imagine that mainstream America has an even more difficult time parsing the differences between Taiwanese-Americans and Chinese-Americans. There seems to be a contradictory strategy - while Asian-Americans are loathe to group themselves together (as is evident in this thread), there is also a rah-rah solidarity that seems contrived and forced. Why is that?

I think it comes from a lack of honesty. All these cultural signifiers that are used to separate Taiwanese-Americans from other Asian-Americans, such as Jay Chou, pearl milk tea - they are not culture. Jay Chou is just a singer, and not a very good one (though a very talented musician and composer). Pearl milk tea is just a drink. These are very feeble markers of uniqueness, because they are the surface ornamentation of culture, not culture. Is that the best you can do?

Similarly, “Asian-American” culture is equally shallow. Cambodian and Korean culture are totally different. What then, would a Cambodian-American and a Korean-American have in common that is not just simply American? The only commonality I can see is the discriminatory treatment they receive, because they look the same to other people. Thus the Asian-American identity is ultimately founded on the perceptions and received treatment of other people. Thus the cultural territory given to “Asian-American culture” is very small.

I think Taiwanese-Americans (and other hyphenated Americans) need to go one of two ways. Either truly understand Taiwanese culture and develop a hybrid culture, or create your own totally independent culture. Either way, you must create an internally-motivated, positivist identity. The first choice is unrealistic. Every successive generation of Taiwanese-American is more American and less Taiwanese. The second choice seems more likely, and to some extent has already happened. Asian-Americans have their own unique Thanksgiving and Christmas traditions, and certainly Asian-American hip-hop adoption has flowed back to Asia. These are meager beginnings, but I think this is a start, and far healthier and more honest than watching Taiwanese music videos on Youtube without being able to understand the lyrics.
commenter10

I should stop littering your post with responses since you'll get enough crap from
1) PRC people aka mainlanders ("Taiwan? you mean there were other people in that renegade province where Chiang Kai Shek and his people moved? oh you mean those collaborators who raped Nanking with the Japanese.");
2) ROC people ("what do you mean we oppressed the Taiwanese people for decades and/or benefited from social/political/economic dominance? your history is too political, you're gonna get us nuked by china. chen shui bian is corrupt so we had to put him in jail for life");
3) and people who don't know much ("why are my Taiwanese friends so angry? what is taiwan? since i'm probably an asian person reading this page, at least i know that it's not thailand.")

but i just have to say i appreciate this post because it's one of the few expositions of personal taiwanese american identity out there.
Ahmed Sanchez De La Cruz Kim

Don't shy away from challenges.

You got something to say then say it, whether it leans towards any side or it's a neutral comment.

As long as this commenting thread is kept open, whether it's online or in the real world, you and anyone else concern about these matters will have to face people of all sorts. In fact, the list of people you just mention are exactly the most important ones to communicate to.

I know in front of the computer, people are a bit more passive and distant but we all have to face the same things when physically interacting with people.
Ben Hwang

I don't understand what the big deal is. Those like John will identify themselves as Taiwanese American. Those like myself, whom my mother and father both grew up in Taiwan, but look at themselves as Chinese, will identify as Chinese American. In the end? What the hell does it matter?

That's like PETA trying to say that you shouldn't eat beef when you're going to a steakhouse. Those that side with PETA, won't go in, and those that want a nice juicy prime rib, will just look at them and go... uhh.. whatever.

From a personal stance, I do believe in the One China perspective, but it just depends on what you use as your backing. Regardless of how certain Taiwanese view the KMT, the KMT is a part of their history too, just as much as the cooperation with the Japanese during the occupation. It's just how you spin it to fit your argument. To each their own.

I will say this though... only in Taiwanese politics, have I ever seen on television where they actually duke it out over laws. I mean, pure fistie-cuffs. Now that's definitely something that I would love to see on CSPAN. Hell, make it PPV, and we'll be out of a deficit in a jiffy. :p
Philip

Perhaps Taiwanese should follow the footsteps of Filipino activists who were able to get their own category on many applications and test forms in CA.

Then Taiwanese-Americans can also claim Pacific Islander (since Taiwan is a island in the Pacific) or just not Asian as well :::joking::, but yeah I think receiving a separate category on more than just the census would bring greater awareness.

One question though, if Taiwan was not considered as Chinese, why is it known as the Republic of China?
commenter10

Taiwan is called the Republic of China because Chiang Kai Shek and his Nationalist (aka kuomingtang or KMT) government / military fled wholesale to the island when it lost to the Communists in 1949.

The ROC government then pretended to rule all of China until the late 1990s; it was recognized as the legit government in exile of China by the UN until 1971, the US until 1979, and today, technically by 20 something random developing countries who receive significant aid.

Taiwan can't change names now because asserting its identity as "Taiwan" (the most logical change) would result in immediate attack by the PRC (implied in their explicit unwillingness to renounce violence to "reunite" the country).
jonbonbon

I understand that my view may not be shared by others, but,

I believe that Taiwanese (excluding aboriginal Taiwanese) is more of an identity than an actual ethnicity (I believe that many Singaporeans also share that belief. Most Taiwanese are descendants of Chinese fisherman that immigrated around the 15th-17th century. For example, someone who lives in the United States may be a mix of German, Italian, and French descent but identifies as simply "American." However, this does not change the fact that he is of European descent. A 5th generation completely whitewashed Chinese-American can completely identify himself as American but is ETHNICALLY Chinese. Most Taiwanese are of Chinese descent, but identify as Taiwanese, which I don't mind.

The Taiwanese dialect originated from the Southeastern Chinese Minnan and is very similar to the Xiamen/Amoy dialect spoken in Fujian; they are mutually intelligible with eachother.

I'm sorry if my points seem a little fractured, I'm not so good at arguing.
notjohnklin

John K Lin,

I have to say that your post is as foolish, hypocritical and as dead-end as the Taiwanese independence movement.

Much of your Taiwanese separatist sentiments probably evolve from CKS's brutalities, namely 2-28, his corruption, outlawing of Taiwanese language (actually Min Nan Hua, a derivative of Fujianese, prevalent throughout SE Asia), domination of major industries by mainlanders. True enough, but none of those atrocities exist today.

Instead what have today among political Taiwanese is their own corruption as figured prominently in Chen Shui-bian's and his family's enormous pilfering of the national treasury. Much of that ill-gotten money will probably never be revealed as it's through his children. In addition, probably even more disturbing is this fond harkening for days under Japanese rule, as though it were a picnic. This is embodied in that running dog Lee Deng Hui. It makes the Taiwanese more akin to whores of the Japanese. Perhaps this is true in fact as demonstrated by Japanese businessmen's famous sexual tourism to Taiwan.

Additionally, as if this weren't enough, many of the Taiwanese traditionalists have deeply agrarian sexist and racist traditions that smack more of someone in a Qing Dynasty time warp or perhaps more charitably a pig farmer in the far sticks of Henan. Anyone who has gone to a traditional Taiwanese knows what I'm talking about. The men eat separately from the women. There are forced arranged marriages and of course forced filial piety. Backward might be a kind adjective. And then there's that Japanese room -- again harkening back to "better days" as a colonial toady.

Never mind that Taiwan's prosperity depends inextricably on investments on the mainland. We will see in our lifetimes, an unstoppable reunification, much like Hong Kong and Macau.
johnklin

Actually, my "separatist sentiments," as you term them are based on the practicality that Taiwan today, as I had outlined in my post, is already a defacto independent country (Democratically self-elected government, own currency, diplomatic relations - even if only a handful of countries, etc.) and would be accepted as such if it were not for the wrath of the PRC.

To be honest, I could care less about Chen Shui-bian. From what little I know of him, he does sound to have been somewhat corrupt, but I am sure there is a lot more corruption that happened under the KMT (if only for the fact that they have ruled modern day Taiwan longer).

As for Hong Kong and Macau, those "returned" to the PRC in a peaceful transition based on formal agreements with the British and Portuguese, who had formerly colonized those city-states. And Hong Kong and Macau are still for decades to come, "special administrative regions." I love the fact the those in Hong Kong can protest against the PRC freely when it comes to June 4th and the fact that Macau is the Las Vegas of Asia.

Taiwan became a rich nation in the 70s, 80s and early 90s long before investments on mainland China. Of course, I do believe that future growth is very dependent on mainland China. But that is one reason why the Taiwanese government has been very strict in terms of ownership and investment rules for Taiwanese companies on the mainland and has pushed for greater diversification at times. The great irony of the situation is that a lot of China's growth has been based on Taiwanese companies and managers bringing their capital and expertise to China.

If the Taiwanese people want to "reunify" with China, that is their democratic prerogative. But I just don't see that happening and certainly I do not think this is "unstoppable," despite your wishes. I don't think the Taiwanese people want this currently under a Communist political system, even if defined as a "special administrative region." I don't rule out China becoming a democratic nation within our lifetime (who could have imagined the relatively QUICK peaceful collapse of the Soviet Union?), but I'd be surprised if it happened.

I think that the Taiwanese deciding to become a part of China is as likely as Americans deciding to become part of the United Kingdom again. Or with your economic argument, because America is so economically strong, the United Kingdom becoming a part of the United States.
commenter10

Most of the statements you made are questionable exaggerations or over-simplifications. But even if they were fully true:

Just because non of those atrocities allegedly exist today doesn't mean someone can't identify as Taiwanese American.

Just because Taiwan *might* be swallowed up by China doesn't mean that someone can't identify as Taiwanese American.

Just because some people in Taiwan might be traditionalists doesn't mean that someone can't identify as Taiwanese American.
Ahmed Sanchez De La Cruz Kim

People can call themselves whatever they like. Outside of Asia, well more specifically in the US, the term Chinese refers mainly to ethnic-heritage. Same thing with other groups like Italians and Scot-Irish or Russian. There are quite a lot of self-identified Americans who mark as Chinese that have little relations to Mainland China or whose families haven't step on it for generations.

I remember conversing with some Mainland college students and non-Asian Sinophiles who didn't like this way of identifying as well as to them (those particular individuals), only those with PRC citizenship can claim to be. In the end, their opinions didn't matter over what background people choose to cling to.

I've met many Taiwanese though who are ambiguous about this topic. A lot do make that distinction of saying no I'm not from China I"m from Taiwan, but when discussing about who is Chinese, other than some voices like the ones on this Video, quite a lot of responses I heard are kind of in the middle.
infallible_asian

I feel kinda bad for starting a flame war.... but yea taiwan just remember if you didn't have america backing you up you would literally have nothing... so don't spout your ego when it has really nothing to back it up...
commenter10

I don't think this is exactly spouting one's ego.

And it's sad that a country of 23 million people with a democratic government and a $383.3 billion GDP need the U.S. to back it up -- but that's the reality when a country of 1.3 billion (and the 4th largest GDP AND a position on the UN Security Council) aims over a thousand missiles at you and claims that you're its "renegade province."
Big Red One

Taiwanese…

Care to justify it? The language you claim as ‘Taiwanese’ is in fact a system of writing dating back to the Shang dynasty. It is the world’s oldest active and continuous writing system. It was the Qin dynasty that actually standardized the writing system after the Qin managed to successfully conquer the other states and establish Qin Shi Huang as the first sovereign emperor.

Historically and ethnically, the language you speak is not considered Taiwanese. That’s the language of the native aborigines, which I might add were persecuted with extreme prejudice under the KMT’s rule before they reformed the island’s politics.

As for justifying the safekeeping of Chinese artifacts and relics, let me just say that is exactly the same reason many countries of the former Eight Nation Alliance used in justifying their seizure and possession of Chinese artifacts and relics.

“Taiwan has its own unique language, culture, cuisine”

Could you please provide examples? Or are you talking about Taiwanese aborigine cuisine?

“But much like the British who settled Australia, I doubt most Australians think of themselves as British or English.”

This is where there is a flaw in your logic. Do Australians call their language Australian?

I don’t think so.

I suggest people look more into history and less into politics, because it is the former that affects the latter. Are you going to claim next that Guan Yu, Liu Bei, or Zhuge Liang of the Three Kingdoms are all Taiwanese legendary heroes/figures?

Hell, is the Han ethnicity going to become 'Taiwanese?'

Chiang Kai Shek will be turning in his grave.
commenter10

One of the primary problems with the PRC perspective is that it fails to recognize that anyone is on Taiwan except KMT Chinese (who moved around 1949) and aboriginals.

The population in Taiwan is effectively 75% Hoklo (moved from Fujian in the 1600s), 15% Hakka (moved from Guangdong at various points), 10% KMT Chinese, and 2% Aboriginal.

So in theory, 98% could be described as "Han." But at the end of the day, 87% of the population has been in Taiwan for several centuries and have no familial or other significant ties to the PRC. (notwithstanding increased economic investment). In fact, they didn't even speak Mandarin until it was forced on them by the Nationalists post-1949, when they were also told that they *were* China. But for this "re-sinification" of Taiwan, they would not have any strong cultural affinity to Chinese-ness as it's been defined in the last 100 years.
Ben Hwang

Actually, the whole Mandarin logic is a little off, since it wasn't until after the Communist Party came in that Mandarin was set as the standard language. So in all technicality, China in general didn't speak Mandarin either on a large scale until that same time period.

Hmm.... amusingly, all of this back and forth makes me wonder when Texans are going to throw in the towel... again. haha.
commenter10

Sorry, it seems that I conflated Mandarin imposition with the creation of a non-imperial national identity (i.e. nation-state Chineseness).

My point was just that people in Taiwan might have had a sense of themselves as "Chinese" but in a way that connected them to a larger history, rather than to a nation-state. Back then, Chinese didn't mean allegiance to PRC/ROC entity and/or Mandarin dominance.

It's kind of like how multi-generational Chinese people (i.e. Toisanese/Cantonese) in the U.S. refer to their dialect as "Chinese" even though most people think Chinese = Mandarin.

Even though I'm pro-democratic Taiwan (which logically entails self-determination, albeit not necessarily independence), I wonder if I'd be less promoting of a Taiwanese "ethnic" identity if Chinese were broadened again to mean more than a national identity dominated by Mandarin speakers.
Ahmed Sanchez De La Cruz Kim

Actually, I think to a lot of people around the world, the majority are aware that Chinese is a broad term reflecting more than Mandarin speakers or PRC citizenship.

The Taiwan naming struggle, to be very honest, to many outsider's eyes, they will see it as an internal matter among the Chinese sphere. There are some who understand the political and historical issues.

In a sense, it's really up to Taiwanese Americans to assert and convince themselves with this topic.
Ben Hwang

Amusingly, I'm the exact opposite of you in the sense of... I see everyone as Chinese, but everyone has their own tongue, own culture, and what not. From that perspective, I find that it's the one thing that makes ethnic Chinese very different. So many dialects and cultures, but we came together under one roof. Kinda like the US but vastly different.

My parents actually claim more Cantonese if anything because our heritage is from there if you do it by pure blood relations. I just find it amusing because everyone gets so hostile about the entire thing, regardless of side... when it's completely subjective.
Ahmed Sanchez De La Cruz Kim

Your comment is pretty interesting. Have you read any of those recent China books, in particular by the author Martin Jacques? He states that China for all purposes, operates like a Civilization-state rather than nation-state like so many countries. Only a few countries in the world can sort of claim the same status, but it's kind of true to the common Chinese person that they do see everyone as Chinese but accept distinct "identities".
johnklin

Tradition Chinese encompasses (as far as I know), all spoken variations of Chinese.

So are you claiming that native aborigines are the only true Taiwanese? Then in America, the only true Americans are Native Americans?

Eight Nation Alliance - interesting. I was not aware of that.

Screw the KMT. There were Taiwanese before the KMT arrived to Taiwan. As for those Chinese who immigrated to Taiwan hundreds of years prior to the KMT, that is a different story. I'm sure there was conflict.

>“Taiwan has its own unique language, culture, cuisine”
It sure does. Taiwanese culture certainly encompasses the aboriginal experience, and over several hundred years, Taiwan did develop its own culture and cuisine. How can one not by being remote. Just like I would say Californians have its own culture than from those in the Northeast (I know since I was born in the Northeast and later moved to California and definitely had culture shock).

So are you saying that the Mexicans are Spanish because they speak Spanish? Americans in Britain will certainly speak a different dialect of English and will self-identify their English as American English (and there is certainly the English accent). Having been to and know Australians, I think they would certainly say that their brand of English is definitely unique and different to British English - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English

You are the flawed one.

My point is - what authority do you have to tell me how I identify myself? I am not your slave.

I hope Chiang Kai Shek is turning in his grave. He has a lot of blood on his hands. There was a reason why CKS lost to the Communist - he was corrupt (and unfortunately, the Communist were also corrupt since absolute power corrupts absolutely).

People like you make me sad.
Big Red One

"So are you claiming that native aborigines are the only true Taiwanese? Then in America, the only true Americans are Native Americans?"

Well, yeah. There is no such thing as 'true American' if you are talking about the typical patriotic American whose ancestors come from Europe or whatever place they immigrated from. America is a nation of immigrants, and the actual Americans - the so-called Native Americans are the ones displaced in the onslaught of European colonialism, and afterwards, the realization of the Manifest Destiny ideal.

"It sure does. Taiwanese culture certainly encompasses the aboriginal experience, and over several hundred years, Taiwan did develop its own culture and cuisine."

Exactly. The culture imported from mainland China after the loss of the Nationalists to the Communist cannot be considered 'Taiwanese' and that includes the language that you so dearly address as 'Taiwanese.'

My point is - what authority do you have to corrupt and, forgive the unintended pun, whitewash my culture?

Nowhere in my writing have I called you a slave, but if you really consider yourself like that, be my guest.

There were also a lot of blood on Taiwanese hands. Need I remind you they fought and collaborated with the Japanese during the Second World War?

And that statement of yours was not entirely necessary. Must you really resort to such childish personal attacks against me, just because I disagree with your views? Did I launch personal attacks against you? No.
johnklin

Being American is not a race. Yes, except for Native Americans, we are all from immigrant backgrounds. If Native Americans do not want to identify as Americans, I can certainly understand. Being an American is beyond race, but the collective immigrant experience and shared common beliefs - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc...

To put it in Computer Science terms, the code has been forked, and when the Chinese immigrated to Taiwan, differences grew over time. Certainly, there is Chinese heritage, but after several hundred years, the changes are differentiated enough to provide a distinction.

Whitewash your culture? I don't have enough context to your background to see how I am whitewashing your culture. For all I know, you are French.

I am sure there were Taiwanese who collaborated with the Japanese - but that happens in all occupied countries. I am sure that Koreans collaborated with the Japanese as well. I am sure there were French who collaborated with the Germans. If CKS came to Taiwan from mainland China to help his fellow countrymen, he had a funny way of showing it.

You are making a personal attack on me by deciding what my identity is over my own choice to how I want to identify myself.
Ben Hwang

Heh. I think code forking is completely different. Taiwanese Americans aren't claiming heritage (not the ones that want independence anyways). In fact, most of the most common arguments really stem from aboriginal or whatever else arguments.

Actually, it's pretty well known that Taiwanese in general collaborated with the Japanese. It wasn't a small group of people either. But truthfully, what does it matter. Everyone has had their low moments.

Personally, John... I think you're getting defensive cuz a bit of your logic is waning. lol. If you want to write in Taiwanese American, go nuts. I'm not sure why other people are giving you hell about it, since I'm not about to write it in myself... to each their own. lol. Beauty of 8A is the different perspectives.
realmememe

That's so, hmmm, provincial. Literally.
Ahmed Sanchez De La Cruz Kim

Eh, aren't Taiwanese issues and people very diverse in general?
infallible_asian

You mean Chinese right? cause taiwan is part of China... everyone knows that...
johnklin

No, everyone does not know that because that is a falsehood.
Big Red One

+ 1.3 billion Chinese, however, do. Trying to convince them otherwise wouldn't end well for both sides.
johnklin

That is because the Communist government perpetuates lies. Might makes right?

8 Asians