Vietnamese Lingerie Cafes Facing Stricter Regulations

By Moye | Tuesday, May 10, 2011 | 16 Comments

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8a coffee Vietnamese Lingerie Cafes Facing Stricter Regulations If you’re thinking about relaxing with a nice, cold glass of Vietnamese iced coffee and a scantily clad waitress, you might have to make these plans sooner than later. The popular lingerie cafes in Southern California’s Little Saigon are facing stricter regulations from the City Council of Garden Grove, where employees must dress appropriately (aka not like a stripper), arcade games are prohibited and owners must not allow any smoking to take place indoors (which is an already illegal activity but with specific prohibitions against coffeehouses).

These establishments, which are spread around Garden Grove, Westminster and parts of Santa Ana, do not serve alcohol or food, but mostly coffee, smoothies and tea. Police Chief Kevin Raney says the amendment to the old cafe ordinance is meant to tighten regulations and ensure that these establishments that call themselves coffeehouses “do not turn into gentleman’s clubs.”

The City Council is also including a ban on window tinting or coverings for these coffeehouses so police can actually see what’s happening inside the establishments and ensure that none of the new rules are being broken. But wait, let’s go back to the stripper waitresses. I get the stripper heels, the bikinis and the short skirts–but pasties? I consider myself pretty liberal when it comes to sexuality and the female form, but I draw the line when it comes to the necessity of using these tiny little pieces of sticky fabric that cover nipples to sell delicious iced coffee. Yes, sex and hot women always sell but at what point are these coffeehouse owners not using creative ways to draw in new customers and only exploiting women to promote their cafe? (Seriously, look at the grin on that guy’s face.)

I don’t care if the female employees themselves say they enjoy their jobs as lingerie waitresses but maybe someone could explain to me how this actually empowers women and their sexuality? I feel like such a 1950′s housewife when I say that I’m a little relieved that the city is passing ordinances to curb the skimpy outfits for waitresses, because sometimes it takes an official notice to raise awareness on and protect women from further exploitation when an establishment uses offensive tactics to increase business and notoriety.

On the other hand, I find it disturbing that new regulation specifically targets these Vietnamese businesses. The illegal gambling and indoor smoking should be addressed but what right does the City Council have to impose their decidedly more conservative approach on a specific ethnic community? If we operate in a supply-and-demand system–and clearly there’s a demand of these kinds of coffeehouses, perhaps there’s more harm in imposing prohibitions on small businesses than attempting to control how someone somewhere serves their iced coffee. I understand the police department’s responsibility in taking on any illegal activity but I’d rather see them work with the community on developing anti-crime and anti-gang measures rather than focus on the coffee house business. Do you believe that these ordinances will have a positive or negative affect on the Vietnamese community?

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DiscriminationFood & DrinkLifestyles

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http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

I always thought they were pretty much glorified versions of Hooters. Does it mean that some of the places had shady things going on if there is a “ban on window tinting or coverings for these coffeehouses so police can actually see what’s happening inside the establishments”

I’m a feminist who really despises the fact that society often sees sexy women as being mere sex objects, so these types of establishments make me deeply uncomfortable (yep, that includes Hooters). I have a question for Moye — when you say “I get the stripper heels, the bikinis and the short skirts–but pasties?” — where is the line, exactly, between exploitation and “okay”? It’s all intended to display a woman’s body for mens’ pleasure, which I don’t find empowering at all, just going along with what society expects of them.
moye

@ErikaHarada I think the window tinting ban was to prevent more smoking/illegal gambling from continuing.I draw the line between wearing skimpy clothing that still covers up your body parts and pasties which basically expose 99% of your boob (well, depending on how big your nipples are…anyway…). I’m fine with Hooters (not that I go there or support the business but it doesn’t bother me) because it’s not like patrons can actually ogle over their waitresses’ naked bodies. Just the shape and what it implies? The spandex stockings?

As for exploitation vs. okay, I can’t say. It’s really all personal preference because I do know women who believe that showing off their body is empowering to themselves (like those Walk for Sluts taking place in Canada and Australia) and others who think it’s playing into what a male dominated society expects of them, as you say.
http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

@moye Thanks for the reply! I’m actually participating in SlutWalk ’11 because I think women should be able to dress however they want without having that be an excuse for someone to rape them. There is a widespread implication that women who dress “slutty” deserve to be raped, which is pretty atrocious.

I really do not think I would be as bothered by establishments like this one or with Hooters if there was no double standard in place. I don’t think objectifying either men or women is a great thing, but at least if men were as objectified as women in society, there might be less of a tendency by people to see women as “things”. Who knows though.
mwei

seems like they have a chicken and the egg problem. does less clothing lead to illegal gambling or gambling lead to less clothing?

they probably should mandate Starbucks baristas to wear the aodai to show they’re not racially targeting an ethnic group.
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A_Lee

Wow, I didn’t realize these existed. Although I shouldn’t be surprised, I guess. It’s not that different than the betel nut girls in Taiwan, or the Korean-only nightclubs with bottle service. As close as you can get to prostitution without the sex.
peptea

most (hopefully all) of these girls are working at the cafes because they chose to. nobody forced them to, right? i dont see anything wrong with it, and im a woman myself.
moye

@A_Lee Do betel nut girls only wear pasties??
jjiang1989

whoa, i’ve never heard of those. i guess it’s sort of okay (i don’t LIKE it though) if you view those coffeehouses as some sort of stripper/cafe place. i just hope there’s an age regulation for those coffeehouses.
Francisca

but Hooters is still legal? come on people, that’s so racist
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Phantom

“I don’t care if the female employees themselves say they enjoy their jobs as lingerie waitresses”

Bingo! You don’t care about their freedom to choose what they do for a living.

“but maybe someone could explain to me how this actually empowers women and their sexuality?”

Maybe “empowering women and their sexuality” is your hangup, your belief, and not theirs? What gives you the right to impose your standard for behavior upon them? What makes your interpretation of “what empowers women and their sexuality” the right one???

“because sometimes it takes an official notice to raise awareness on and protect women from further exploitation when an establishment uses offensive tactics to increase business and notoriety.”

Who, exactly, is “exploiting” whom? The men probably have to pay more for tea at these establishments than they would at Peet’s. This makes for more income for the owners (presumably Asians). That means they can pay the waitresses MORE than otherwise (definitely Asian women). And the women probably get bigger tips than they would wearing burqas. Again, I ask you, who is exploiting whom? Sounds like the customers, primarily Asian guys I’d guess. But they’re not being forced to go there. They WANT to go there. It is all by mutual consent among adults. If you don’t like it, stay out of it.

What are these “offensive tactics”? If you’re talking about the women’s attire, it sure seems to attract rather than offend male customers. Or is it that you consider it offensive, so therefore it must be offensive?

I thought this was 8Asians, you know, the blog that supports homosexual marriage and whatever else anyone wants to do sexually (unless it involves marrying a white guy…). Yet these women, who, at least in the pics, are wearing TONS more fabric than a bikini top & thong bottom, must be hounded out of their jobs.

Wow. Here I thought 8Asians was all hip and progressive and now I find I’m among a bunch of Right Wing Sarah Palin Tea Party activists!

I’ll leave it up to my readers to infer sarcasm or not, in whole or part.
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Phantom

@ErikaHarada @moye (Many) women want to be *objectively* pretty (not subjectively as in “I think you’re pretty”, but objectively as in “Do you think I’m prettier than her?” “Do you think these jeans make me look fat?”). They want every guy to notice them and think they’re hot, but they don’t want their guy to notice any other gals and think they’re hot.

WOMEN! ! ! You drive us poor guys nuts (in more ways than one).

Re. male topless clubs: If there was a market for it, there would be some. I’m sure there are some, but a mere single percentage of the number of “gentlemen’s clubs.”

I’ve got a feeling you just don’t like the reality you find yourself in. I don’t think you’ll be successful in making guys not act like guys, and your fall back position of trying to make gals act like guys is probably doomed to failure as well. . . . Sorry.
http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

@Phantom @moye …Why are you commenting on a super old post?

But anyway, you’re making a whole lot of assumptions about women and men which sound evo-psych like. Plenty of us are not stereotypical men or women.

Also you probably are not coming at this from the same place as me because I believe men and women are not truly equal in this world (see feminism 101) and our choices greatly impact how women are seen by society.

http://www.slate.com/id/2124503/
Phantom

@ErikaHarada @moye Sorry. Long time (occasional) reader, new poster. Didn’t realize your 1 month old post was considered “super old”, esp when the issue (Garden Grove cracking down on Vietnamese lingerie cafes), was newly posted about just the day before (http://www.8asians.com/2011/07/07/no-more-underboob-for-vietnamese-cafes/, 7 July ’11).

No, not EP. I try not to speculate on the “whys” of somethings, just try to conform to realities I can’t change.

All I was pointing out is that your hope that men won’t objectify women (to one degree or another), is futile. History sure isn’t on your side. Most women don’t do all the things they do (fashion, hair, makeup, etc), just so that a guy will admire their intellects, and very few men prefer their women to look homely. Most women would prefer to be beautiful and most men would prefer to be with a beautiful woman (and vice versa). If you’re not like this, I’ll respect that.

Aesthetic sense is hardwired into our brains. Even babies have been shown to gaze longer at pretty faces than homely one. Beauty is that which pleases. When people have money to spare, they buy beautiful clothes, cars, homes, artwork, etc.

So, if you’re participating in the SlutWalk ’11, will you also participate in National Topless Day (22 Aug ’11)? Does that fit w/your ideas re men and women being “truly equal”? Or do you think guys should have to cover their nips?

http://www.gotopless.org/ (no, I’m not a Raelian)

http://www.tera.ca/

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Topfreedom

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