Open Letter to Shiuan Butler, Author of the Petition Against 8Asians & Sexism

By jozjozjoz | Wednesday, April 6, 2011 | 47 Comments

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Hi, I’m Joz Wang. I’m Co-Editor of 8Asians.com, along with Moye Ishimoto and Ernie Hsiung.

It has come to our attention via Twitter that 8Asians.com is the target of a petition to “Stop Posting Sexist Articles,” a statement that is both sad and factually incorrect. In this petition, Shiuan Butler states the following:

8asians.com has posted several sexist articles, most recently: “Do Asian Women Have the Smallest Breasts?,” and “Do Asian Women Have the Smallest Vaginas?” by Koji Sakai … a relatively prominent Asian American male feels he has the right to talk about women’s body parts and, specifically, Asian women’s body parts carelessly and with no regard for oppressions at large. He is dehumanizing and objectifying women by doing so.

[...]

Koji Sakai shouldn’t be publicizing sexist statements and 8asians certainly shouldnt be publishing them. Sign this petition to tell 8asians to take down the articles immediately and post an apology and vow to set up guidelines to prevent sexist posts from going up in the future.

Because we’re in a position to defend ourselves, let’s talk about Koji’s posts for a bit — and forgive us for being defensive, but Ms. Butler has clearly gone on the offensive.

If Ms. Butler were to get past the fact that “Asian women” and “vaginas” were used in the same blog post, she might actually recognize that the post isn’t about “dehumanizing and objectifying women,” or certainly not (as she infers in her petition) “rape.” The post is about stereotypes, and the discussion of stereotypes of both women and men. In fact, the main point of the vagina, breast, and penis articles was to dispel some prevalent stereotypes– and to point out that race has nothing to do with them. As a matter of fact, these posts by Koji were a direct response to popular search engine keywords that would direct to 8Asians.com: “asian penis” and “asian vagina,” and are meant to be light-hearted in nature while still examining stereotypes about Asian women and men.

I shouldn’t have to say this, but Koji’s response is to use humor to acknowledge that — like most heterosexual males — he likes breasts. Although the majority of 8Asians’ readers read Koji’s article and found it funny– almost 60% of our readers clicked “laughing” on Moodthingy for that post– it is evident that Ms. Butler did not find this amusing. We understand that not everyone finds the same things funny. However, the editors of 8Asians stand by Koji’s article because we do not believe the content of his article to be sexist either in intent or in actuality. We will not apologize for his post and most certainly will not take down the articles; we will not start a precedent to allow online petitioners to bully us into censoring the content on our site in accordance of what they think is or is not appropriate. We stand by our contributors’ First Amendment rights to free speech, especially in relation to topics which are relevant to our community. 8Asians has always been about diversity, especially diversity of viewpoints and opinions– some of which may be controversial.

It’s too bad that things had to turn out this way. Ms. Butler had a number of ways to engage us in a dialogue before starting an online campaign against us. She could have left a comment on our blog, on Facebook, or via Twitter stating her opinions. She could have e-mailed the editors of 8Asians, where any of us would have been happy to explain our stance. She could have written a guest blog entry on 8Asians about her own experiences about “the double oppression of racism and sexism” as an Asian American woman. But instead of contacting us or opening up a direct line of communication, she wasted both her time and the time of 8Asians staff by creating and tweeting a petition about sexism on blog posts that have nothing to do with the oppression of women. This lack of communication shows that she has no interest in actual dialogue.

So why do we feel the need to publicly bring up an internet petition? Because of a comment written up on Ms. Butlers’ blog:

I recently heard about 8asians and was considering their ‘range’ of articles. I wasn’t sure I felt the quality ones balanced out the sexist ones … I should stick with my gut instincts.

And to be honest, this comment bothers me more than the petition itself, which is ironic, really. 8Asians is a site that revolves around community participation. If you have a problem with with the blog or any of the specific posts within it, whether you think our site panders to “the white man,” is “too gay,” or is overtly sexist — all recent comments about 8Asians we’ve heard in the past three days — that’s your opinion, and we respect it. But don’t just leave comments or start campaigns on third party sites trashing 8Asians and expect the website to improve; write us directly and let us know how you feel. Offer to write a guest blog post. Comment and engage in conversation.

Otherwise, you are part of the problem.

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EfrenBose

You women are such sexist pigs! (Yes, I said it.)
http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

So now I know the real reason you’re in pharma. You wanna create a master sexist pigs drug! I finally caught you! For some reason, I have the theme song of Pinky and the Brain going on in the back of my head too. :p
Pingback: I Promise I’m Sexist! I Swear on my Small Asian Penis so Just Gimme a Chance! | You Offend Me You Offend My Family
http://www.bigwowo.com/ bigWOWO

Honestly,I don’t know if Shiuan Butler believes half of what she says. A while back, she picked a fight with one of my commenters using the same old sexism tar and feather. I invited her to a podcast with him, and she responded by ignoring our invitation and posting something on her blog about how Asian men were offended whenever an Asian woman has the gall to speak out against sexism (or some other inane nonsense like that). She then invited Asian men to comment on her post–BUT she didn’t approve any comments that men posted.

Some people are like that–they drop challenges, talk big, and provide nothing to back it up. On the web, it’s easy to talk ish about people and then run and hide when they confront you. But I do like your open letter. Serious props for defending Koji against this craziness.

And by the way, her subtitle of her book is “The Life of Shiuan’s Vagina.” If she can talk about vagina, why can’t Koji?
EfrenBose

@bigWOWO Because men talking about vaginas is SEXIST. (even if they’re gay. and i don’t want to go near one. just sayin’.)
http://www.bigwowo.com/ bigWOWO

@EfrenBose Haha! So does that mean we’re being sexist by even having this conversation? She might have to launch another petition against the 8Asians comment section. Or maybe your ISP is sexist. And I guess Firefox is sexist since I used their browser to get here.
EfrenBose

@bigWOWO Yes we are. Because we are MEN talking about VAGINAS. And Chrome is sexist because I’m using that browser. And my ISP is sexist, and so is my computer.
DrumJ8

I highly doubt she’ll approve my comment which is “up for moderation.”:

Dear Shiuan Butler,

I don’t personally know either party here, and I don’t typically post anything. But there’s a first time for everything.

Koji Steven’s article entitled “Do Asian Women Have the Smallest Breasts?” discusses mostly breasts of Asian women. You respond with references to rape, sex trafficking, and violence against women. Really?

In addition, you attack the author, stating he may have “a loneliness and desperation for contact with another human being, specifically women.” Imho you seem to be reading quite in depth into a short article about breasts.

I don’t see how he, as you state, is “being blatantly sexist and oppressive to women when he publishes articles like these.” He admits in the article itself that “I know that this whole article is rather inane and immature” and in the end acknowledges that “any statement that begins with “all (fill in race) have big/small (whatever)” is probably racist and not totally accurate.” I read the title of his article and I understood the point. I don’t understand your entry.

I don’t understand how acknowledging that stereotypes exist automatically leads to their perpetuation. Will turning away and completely ignoring them make them go away? Steven’s article was comedic in tone and for me a disconnect exists between his statements and an attack response. And your stating that “Joking is really an excuse to say what one really wants without taking any responsibility for it.” Do you like comedic movies or not at all ever? I’m not sure if he was joking. I would love it if I was emailed photos of women’s breasts, to be quite honest. Yes, it’s kind of funny, but yes, it’s completely true. Does that make me a horrible person? Should I delete them to make the world a better place? Should I force myself to not enjoy them, and if so, how? If I look at them, am I advocating violence against women?

Look, sorry, I don’t mean to step on your or anyone’s toes, that has never been my modus operandi, but basically my point is that, NO, I will not be signing this petition and I don’t think anyone should. And between the two, I honestly would rather visit 8asians than this website. There’s a better chance I’d get a laugh over there, and here I think I’d just end up feeling bad about myself for being myself. I don’t want to visit a website and feel bad about myself for it. I have my own life for that. And they have quality articles too; everyone has their own opinion and thus many different interpretations are inevitable, this comment of mine being a prime example. People may think the 8asians articles are sexist; I, for one, do not. Your entry is just a kind of a downer, that’s all. It’s like this:

Breasts = happy; violence against women = I know it exists, and I wasn’t thinking about it but now I am. How am I supposed to enjoy House Hunters now”

I’m not a writer, I don’t have a website or write in a blog, this is just one humble opinion of a lowly temporary office worker, but I have a voice too.

Good luck to you and your endeavors, peace out, but people, don’t sign this petition.
DrumJ8

@EfrenBose @bigWOWO My parents recently bought me a MAC which I think stands for “Men Are Cock-possessors” and thus my new computer is sexist as well. PC stands for.. Phemales Can. Either that or Phemales Can’t. Everything is sexist.
http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

@EfrenBose @bigWOWO Oh crud. I read this post on my iPad. That makes Apple sexist by association. I’m so sorry, Apple! I am slightly curious if “mangina” would be only half sexist cuz I use that term online a lot.
EfrenBose

@darkmoon @bigWOWO I don’t want to know why you use the word mangina, darkmoon. Ever.
http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

@EfrenBose @bigWOWO I use it all the time in Bioshock 2 online. lol.
raymonst

@DrumJ8 @EfrenBose @bigWOWO i LOLed @ “MAC” & “PC”
EmilyElaineDzenowski

Shiuan Butler must not have actually read “Do Asian Women Have the Smallest Breasts?” and “Do Asian Women Have the Smallest Vaginas?” because if she did she would have realized that both articles were trying to disprove two sexist stereotypes that apply to Asian women.

I would certainly hate to think that she did read both articles entirely and still missed this. I would hate to think that anyone could be that idiotically close-minded.

She wants 8Asians to apologize, really? I think she is the one who needs to issue an apology.
maliwi

Ms. Butler manipulates information to sell her cause. Though she includes the 8Asians penis article in her blog it is nowhere to be seen on the petition page. Why the omission? Would visitors to the petition be less inclined to sign if they knew 8Asians also did some myth busting on race and penis size? Her attempt to connect the 8Asians article to rape, sex trafficking, child trafficking, and domestic violence is shameful. Shame on her for for doing that. (For more on this tactic Google “daisy ad”)

It is especially ironic that Ms. Butler writes about the dangers of perpetuating stereotypes when the fourth paragraph of her blog post concerning 8Asians “All of us are hurt when young by not getting enough closeness…” [http://www.shiuanbutler.com/2011/04/04/sexism-and-internalized-racism-a-case-study/] does just that… without citing any research.
BlasianBytch

I should start a petition to encourage Ms.Butler to learn what sexism really is.
Elliott

Probably the thing I love most about all this is that Koji’s articles aren’t about anything but simple scientific research that’s been done on the human body. Biology, anatomy… these pursuits by definition treat the human body as an object to be studied, the results of which are meant to be interpreted. And so… I guess… Ms Butler thinks any scientific research with regards to the human body is objectionable by virtue of objectifying the human body. Shame on you, Koji! Shame on you, shame on Leonardo Da Vinci, and an extra heaping dose of shame on Henry Gray! You know, it’s smut like Gray’s Anatomy that provides such vivid close-ups of body parts that has led to the flourishing of the San Fernando Valley porn industry and the wider corruption of our social values! For shame!
Akrypti

This controversy between Shiuan Butler and 8Asians did not need to happen.

Koji, who is a great writer by the way, posted a few cheeky articles that were off-putting to me as a feminist, but by no means serious enough for me to do anything more than avert my eyes. Plus, one must take everything in context, and he is the author of much more substantive, meaningful content, which I appreciate.

Shiuan, who is arguably a pioneer in her own right for the contemporary APA feminist movement, found Koji’s articles to be sexist. They were. Not the worst case of sexism I’ve seen, oh no, nowhere near. Heck, I’ve personally been guilty of worse. But yes, the articles were sexist.

I admire Shiuan’s work a lot. I enjoy the content of her blog and I’ve read her book, twice. It’s still on my Kindle. However, Shiuan came from left field with an attack on Koji and 8Asians, and in her “case study” piece, made passive aggressive insinuations on Koji’s upbringing and psyche, extrapolating that to apply to all Asian men everywhere and their upbringing and psyche, generally, to the point where it became UN-constructive for the progress of contemporary APA feminism. Really, by the way, a better term is gender studies, especially as applied to its intersection with critical race theory. We should really be concerned with APA gender studies, on the social inequities facing both APA women and men, gay and straight inclusively.

I understand and appreciate why my fellow 8A writers are angry. They have every right to be angry because they got sucker punched by someone who should be a fellow sister and ally. The funny thing here is we all want the same thing. We’re all feminists. We’re all race-conscious. We were all kind of into APA activism, grassroots organizational work, social justice, CRT, and all that good stuff, we all kind of perk our eyes and ears a little more when we hear of an APA getting attention in the media, we all have strong opinions about Amy Tan for better or worse, we all bristle at “ching chong” when we hear someone else utter it publicly but privately have jokingly used it ourselves once or twice, heck it gets even more specific! We’re all bloggers, we’re all kind of into creative writing probably think there’s a book in us and want to write and publish it someday because damn straight we could do better than Amy Tan, in sum, we all care. So forgive me if I am a perplexed at the controversy, which essentially is in-fighting. That’s what we’re doing here, people, in-fighting.

This controversy between Shiuan Butler and 8Asians REALLY did not need to happen. I am dismayed that it did.
Elliott

@Akrypti Interesting thoughts, well written, etc etc, but you do realize, the controversy didn’t just… happen. By phrasing events as “the controversy… did not need to happen” as if it had just spontaneously materialized from the ether, you seem to be trying really hard to avoid assigning blame. It seems clear to me though that it’s clear to you that Ms Butler did in fact throw the first punch at Koji, then proceeded to jump the rest of the 8asian crowd. I honestly don’t think this whole thing matters half a hoot, but if you’re gonna write paragraphs on this argument, you might as well own up to the basic fact of things which is that there is blame, and it belongs to Ms Butler.
Xxxtine

@Elliott @Akrypti I think what Akrypti meant was that instead of starting a pitchfork campaign, she could’ve just talked and informed us that she felt the articles were sexist instead of having this one-sided dialogue we’re having now. This just tells me that people are either unwilling or have too much pride to be able to learn from their opposition.

So yes, the article in question I can see as being sexist. Do I think they are? No. I personally am not offended, nor do I find it sexist. I’ve already spoken about my breasts amongst these 8Asians – same with Akrypti

http://www.8asians.com/2008/06/06/the-8asianscom-writers-talk-about-boobs/

It’s unfortunate that people are going to see what they want to see, and turn it into the complete opposite of its intention.
http://www.erniehsiung.com/ Ernie H.

@Akrypti Sadly, the most telling of all of this is that the only response we’ve seen from Ms. Butler after taking the time write this response… is another tweet to not forget to sign the petition to her Twitter followers.

Very well, then.
http://www.8Asians.com jozjozjoz

@ErnieHsiung @Akrypti I think anyone who has known me for any amount of time knows that I don’t have much tolerance with drama and in-fighting. I don’t usually get involved in fights because that’s really not my style.

If Ms. Butler has indeed “sucker punched” us, then I hope that my statement is not construed as a “punch back.” In fact, the only reason I am making any additional comment is because I have such high respect for Akypti as a fellow 8Asian contributor and as a role model in the Asian American community.

I’ve done nothing but restate the facts, stated my stance on behalf of the 8Asians Editors (not even necessarily the opinions of the other 8Asians contributors), and asked her to join us in dialogue and discussion. Essentially, I am standing here, asking, “Yo, what the heck, girl?”

I haven’t attacked her personally, or her beliefs, or her right to publish whatever she wants on her own site– things that she has done to one or all of us. I haven’t created any petitions which funnels form messages into her mailbox. I haven’t taken her words and misquoted them toward my own benefit. I haven’t even asked her to apologize!

In none of her various blog posts, tweets, or even the form letter which she created through change.org has she asked for an explanation or exhibited any behavior indicative of wanting some sort of dialogue or exchange. She has simply (and repeatedly) demanded us to “apologize” and “take down the articles.” Although we have responded to her petition, we continue to get form letters in our inboxes (which she should know are being filtered out).

I stand by my original statement that she is trying to bully us into deciding what we should or shouldn’t publish. One of the things I’m passionate about– and a big reason that I give my very limited time to 8Asians– is because I am believe in giving voice to Asian Americans (and Asian Canadians). Creating guidelines and policies against certain kinds of articles (as Ms. Butler suggests we do), is against the spirit of 8Asians. We are much more interested in hearing the differing opinions and viewpoints which exist in our community.

We are about expression, not censorship.

We are about inclusion, not exclusion.
http://www.8asians.com/author/akrypti/ akrypti

@jozjozjoz @ErnieHsiung @Akrypti I found your piece here to be a gem, Joz. It stayed above the belt, so to speak, addressed head-on the exact points that made my brain go “Derf?!” and there was nothing offensive or defensive about it. A gem of an open letter.

ZOMG you guys are really getting form letters? lol. Okay come on. That’s kind of funny!
DMan

What kind of name is http://www.shiuanbutler.com/? I had to post that. Is she adopted or is she married to someone non-Asian? Is she down with the Asian community or is did she want to bash Koji and his perceived sexism. Koji seems cool and writes in an interesting manner, but if Joz and the others don’t think it is sexist then only this Shiuan is the one unwilling to engage in dialogue.
EfrenBose

@Akrypti @jozjozjoz @ErnieHsiung This is why you’re all so awesome. Akrypti, you really should write for 8A again.
Ahreum

While I don’t quite agree with Ms. Butler’s petition, I do see how offense both article titles are at first glance. They probably should have been worded differently.
Xxxtine

@EfrenBose @Akrypti @jozjozjoz @ErnieHsiung I second the motion that Akrypti should be writing for 8Asians again.
http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

@Akrypti This, this, and this.
Akrypti

@ErikaHarada ?
deplicator

@DMan “What kind of name is http://www.shiuanbutler.com/?”

That’s exactly the kind of comment she’s talking about. Making a judgment biased on nothing more than what you can see. Both sides have an incredible opportunity for a win/win scenario here. I hope it is used wisely.
http://www.8Asians.com/ jozjozjoz

@Ahreum With all due respect, what is your suggestion for a “less offensive” title for each of those posts?

I still do not see anything wrong with them as they are simply asking the questions the post seek to examine.
ErikaHarada

@jozjozjoz @Ahreum I understand the intent behind the articles’ titles, but the first time I saw the titles pop up on my Google Reader, I thought “not this stuff again”. Mainstream blogs and “news” sites often purposefully make their titles sensationalistic while perpetuating the same type of stereotypes, so at first I didn’t realize that the articles that appeared here worked to dispel myths and not perpetuate them. I think titling them something like “No, Asian women don’t all have small boobs” etc might be a bit less ambiguous sounding.
Ahreum

@ErikaHarada @jozjozjoz This is exactly what I mean. The “No, Asian women don’t all have small boobs.” @jozjozjoz, I said “at first glance”.
EmilyElaineDzenowski

@DMan

“Is she adopted or is she married to someone non-Asian?” What does that have to do with anything? So what is she is adopted or married to a non-Asian, that has nothing to do with the fact that she has this ridiculous idea that Koji’s article are “sexist”.

9_9 *pfft* please
micromermaid

Frankly I’m sick of 8Asians posts about breast, penis and vagina size. Such studies aren’t science, and aren’t socially revealing. I get so irritated when people bust out “facts” like “Ghanian men have the biggest penises in the world” and “Korean women have the tightest vaginas.” WHO THE FUCK CARES!?!?! Who the hell is spending money to travel the world measuring this bullshit under the guise of “science.” IT DOESN’T MATTER. And it is dehumanizing; it’s like making people into some zoological project that feeds into racial fetish. I don’t care if you say you’re posting it to mock sexual and racial stereotypes. By posting this stuff, you’re only reinforcing that breast, penis and vagina sizes matter. I do think those posts are sexist. It seems most people here disagree with that statement, so I’ll just say another thing: it’s in poor taste. It brings down the integrity of this blog. It’s fluffy, if not straight up stupid, and offensive. Stop glorifying sexist, racist, stupid “science” on this blog.
BlasianBytch

@micromermaid But they DO matter. When they are being used to stereotype, dehumanize or mock a group of people. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that people aren’t talking about these subjects won’t put and end to it confronting them will.

I would also like to know why its sexist to discuss the human body, even in a snarky fashion.
timat8asians

@micromermaid I have to agree with BlasianBytch. While I can’t comment on vaginas and breasts as a gay asian man, I can comment on the penis angle, and I have to say in the gay community that stereotype is used quite often to denigrate gay asian men. If you don’t talk about the stereotype and correct the notion that it’s wrong, it does continue to perpetuate. When I was younger and actually going to gay pride and rallies, my favorite t-shirt to wear just had the words “Bigger than you’d think” across the front of it. No one ever asked me what that meant, and I got quite a few high-fives for wearing it.
ErikaHarada

@micromermaid Have you actually read the articles? They worked to dispel myths, not perpetuate them…and they brought up those bogus “studies” you are referencing to say that they’re unscientific and racist. While most of the world seems to have bought into the stereotypes, most folks on this blog obviously have not, which you would find if you actually looked into it some more.

The only *truly* sexist thing I have seen in the articles are the photos of big breasted women Koji posted on the boob size post…
moye

@micromermaid So basically, you didn’t read the posts. Okay then.
moye

@timat8asians The T-shirt was about your feet, right?
BlasianBytch

@ErikaHarada @micromermaid I’m a 40HH I don’t think all pics of me are innately sexist. I don’t even feel that the pictures of the women in that article in that context were sexist or meant to put down women in anyway.
http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

@BlasianBytch @micromermaid By themselves without context they would not be sexist, but in a male dominated heterocentric world like we have today they are indeed sexist. If society accepted standards of beauty that are not skinny women with big boobs with straight hair and preferably pale skin AND showed as many naked men as they did naked women in their ads and media images, my perception towards those photos would be different. Unfortunately that is not the case in this day and age.
jedifreac

@DMan What does having a last name like “Butler” have to do with being down with the Asian community? Even if you disagree with her opinion, she is entitled to have her own perspective on Koji’s articles and to critique 8Asians. Jesus christ.
http://me.mikelee.org/ mikeleeorg

The saddest thing about this whole affair is how Shiuan handled it. I really do wish she had written a comment or email message first. The petition seems a bit overly dramatic – though if her intent was to cause a “controversy” to draw attention to her stance, I guess she certainly got that.

I think Akrypti hit the nail on the head:

“I understand and appreciate why my fellow 8A writers are angry. They have every right to be angry because they got sucker punched by someone who should be a fellow sister and ally. The funny thing here is we all want the same thing.”

I would have rather seen Shiuan ask for a guest post to write a rebuttal and educate us & our readers about her viewpoint, than to start a petition. But I suppose that would have gotten less attention…
Ed

Honestly, I’m not sure why people are so concerned about one self-declared feminists opinion. I read through her blog and her book and I do not consider her opinion of any value. She’s a feminist slash asian activist, who admits, at one time, enjoying being “objectified” and “fetishized”. She re-counts one-night stands where she took pleasure in being used. With the reference to fetish you can assume that most of these encounters were with white guys with an asian fetish. I’m sorry for all you Shiuan fans out there, but as an Asian Male, I find her offensive. I can almost write off this next generation of asian females because women like her find it necessary to declare themselves the voice of reason and experience. In one post she called for Asian men and women to unite and I laughed out loud at the title. Her own hidden racial bias is hidden in her writing. Pay attention. I for one do not support her and if her stupid petition were to somehow succeed I would setup a counter petition to have the article re-published.
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