So, for the twelve or so 8Asians.com readers who haven’t arrived here from Germany, I’ll give you a brief overview as to what’s been happening the past week or so:
- Around three months ago, I write a post called Mister Wong, Offensive Social Bookmarking Portal. It gets a healthy dosage of debate, but not too much.
- A week or so ago, the site gets linked to from a comment from mashable.com, a popular Web 2.0 blog.
- The CEO decides to remove the mascot, resulting in many responses from Germans and floods this site with comments as to the loss of their mascot.
- Der Spiegel online writes about the situation, which results in even more responses.
[sigh] Okay, then.
Rather than constantly defend myself, I’m simply going to re-post a comment that I made on Mister-Wong.com’s blog. The point being this: I find the mascot less objectionable now, but only because I discussed this at length with some people closer to the situation and understand the context behind it. That being said, Mister-Wong.com had a mascot which was objectionable to many Americans, not just me. The executive team at Mister-Wong.com had a choice whether or not to change their branding, and they did so – not because they were buckling to what many German’s see as “american pc bullshit,” but because they have full intentions to expand their business to America, and this is just good business sense.
Incidentally, after reading Google Blogoscoped’s article on the matter, I did NOT accuse Mister-Wong.com of racism; I accused them of having an inappropriate logo. There’s a difference.
The full comment is after the jump.
As the author who wrote a blog entry criticizing mister-wong.com’s mascot, I’ve received a lot of… passionate debate on the matter. Some of it extremely vitriolic and obscene, but that’s not the reason why I’m writing this comment.
After talking with many people with a variety of opinions about the subject, I don’t believe that the staff chose the logo with malice, and I emphasize with the team and the user of mister-wong.com that a piece of important branding was taken away by what many people see as an interest group. Many people have asked what I personally found upsetting about the mascot, and Akyrpti, a fellow writer of one of the blogs I post on, as written a more eloquent post that I wouldn’t be able to write as well. The post is here:
http://www.8asians.com/2007/08/01/an-eggshell-psyche-mister-wong-and-why-8a-took-a-stand/
You can come up with your own conclusions – while other commenters interpret the mascot as “warm and whimsical,” I (and MANY other Americans, not just Asian-Americans) interpret as offensive and reminiscing of darker times.
Does that mean Americans are overly race-sensitive and politically correct? Perhaps. Overly so? Is it justified? That’s up for debate, but because there is racism and discrimination, both subtle and overt, in the United States (actually, EVERYWHERE) there needs to be methods and practices addressing this.
And it boils down to the following: If Mister-wong.com wants to make an international presence in the United States, it must be mindful of the cultural norms in the country they are releasing a product to; it just makes good business sense.
That’s why the website exists, right? Which is why, as both an Asian-American and as someone working in the Internet industry, I appreciate Kai and his team listening and acting on decisions such as this. The executive team could have looked the other way and shrug this off as American PC group-think; but it would have made for dreadful business sense.
PS: To the Jewish woman who comments above saying that a “Mister Jew” character wouldn’t be offended because the best way to combat stereotypes is through humor, believe it or not, I actually agree with that, and good for her. Unfortunately, I don’t trust the rest of humanity to do the same. And from a business point of view, that battle shouldn’t be waged on a social bookmarking engine, but I could be wrong.
What next?
Other posts you may be interested in:
Recent Comments
- Asians Behaving Badly: Japanese American Woman Sues Because Crunch Berries Aren’t Real Berries
- Jake: Nips? Flipz? How about someone take one for the team and sue those racist confectioners for products that...
- Newsflash: Some Asian Men Cheat on their Partners
- Hip Hip Hooray for MVP Hideki Matsui
- Simon Tsui: Hip hip hurry for Hideki Matsui! A lot of people question whether someone else deserved being MVP,...
- Rachel Lee: Asian Teens Behaving Badly
- ABC’s Modern Family: “I’m from Denver.”
- slinslin: while i definitely dig that asian americans are getting more representation on tv ('i'm from...
20 Comments to “Mister Wong takes down logo, International Flame war commences”
Jesse! wrote:
They didn’t choose the logo with malice, maybe not, but certainly ignorance.
Again I say Ernie, this is GREAT news… you really should be patting yourself on the back here… Spiegel picked it up!! fucking great!
Signed,
American PC Bullshit artist number 1
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 10:35 am | Permalink
Claire wrote:
Well said, Ernie. Are far as trusting humanity, eh, just reading some of the comments left here and elsewhere make me feel as if we have a long way to go. I feel the same as Akrypti: we can certainly disagree, but put out the flames. One of my favorites is accusing Ernie of planning to attack mister wong in order to link bait. God knows we’ve sat around the 8asian bunker discussing how we aren’t getting enough Germans to visit the site! Our plan for world linkage domination is nearly complete, as soon as I go write my post about France.
Furthermore, it made me just plain sad to see commenters blanket the entire U.S. with the jackassery of our current administration. IT ALREADY SUCKS without the low blows, okay (for the record, I most certainly did not vote for the current administration). Please don’t assume that we aren’t politically aware and active just because the blog isn’t always politically focused. I also think that the “solve bigger problems” and “but some of my best friends are Asian” are weak responses that always come up in situations like this. As a woman and a minority, been there, heard that. It only takes away from your point when you use those excuses, because that’s what they are: excuses. Not valid arguments.
Lastly, I think it’s unfair to label this dialogue as bs political correctness. I think it’s important to examine and discuss seemingly small issues like this because sometimes it’s these small issues that seep into a collective consciousness, not the big obvious kkk parade.
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 10:54 am | Permalink
akrypti wrote:
We heart Ernie!!
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 10:58 am | Permalink
turkeydinner! » Blog Archive » The Mister Wong Debate: Offended Asians, Germans and the Tyranny of Political Correctness wrote:
[...] The site is based in Germany and Ernie’s post got circulated around until he had a bunch of rabid Germans at his doorstep commenting away about how he was stupid to call that offensive and how he was just lauding American PCness on the rest of the world (and so what, I say). Ernie has decided to repost a bit about it today. Have a read. [...]
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 11:00 am | Permalink
John wrote:
Wow – Der Spiegel. All we need now is The New York Times in the U.S. to cover this
. All PR is good PR!
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 11:21 am | Permalink
Michael wrote:
Who are “MANY other Americans”? How can you assume to speak for others? Speak for yourself or shut up. Bush also thinks he speaks for a majoritiy. Are your words so powerless that you need to start them up?
By the way… your allegation that Mister Wong is a stereotyp of a chinese and therefor offensive is absurd. The Simpsons – one of the most popular cartoon charaters in the world are so popular because Homer, Bart, Krusty, Willie an Apu are all stereotypes! Would you call Matt Groening “less sensitive to political correctness” as you guys here at 8asians? I don’t think so.
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 11:29 am | Permalink
marc wrote:
I am actually from Germany, but I thank you for this overview, Ernie. I’ve just stumbled over the issue.
In general, I don’t have a problem with stereotypes used in a humorous context, e.g. cartoons, and I vehemently oppose PC tyranny. But I agree with you that for a company it’s inappropriate to use real or supposedly stereotypes in its logo.
Asian Europeans don’t regard the former logo as stereotyping. But they’re another culture club than Asian Americans and so are people from Asia. A global business is better off considering such sensitivities.
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 11:49 am | Permalink
courageous kiwi wrote:
I worked in Germany for roughly six weeks on a consulting gig a year ago, and one topic with my European coworkers that came up a few times was American cultural solipsism. For instance, one of the Germans’ mobile ringtones was the Depeche Mode song, “Precious”, and he was surprised that I, an American, not only could identify the song, but knew the lyrics. A less trivial example was when, during a session at lunch, the various European nationals realized I could keep pace in a discussion about the European Union in general. Overall, I left Germany with a very positive impression of the country.
So it’s ironic to me that Americans, in being taught cultural relativism, it is so utterly offensive to the same Europeans that pride themselves on being knowledgable of the world outside their borders, that it would cause such a backlash to this site. Cultural relativism is the idea that the Golden Rule, that is, “do unto others what you would have them do unto you”, is not an accurate rule in a world that is tearing down national and cultural borders at an alarming rate. Rather, the way to think, is “do unto others, as they would have you do unto them.” Using an example from an earlier comment, I wouldn’t run around Sikh India shaving off beards, even though I myself shave daily. The rules apply to the business world. You would not go to Japan and criticize the Japanese for taking offense when, in dealing with a more traditional businessperson, you forget to accept a business card with both hands.
In an international community where cross-culture communication and the means to communicate propagate faster than multiculturalism itself, it is silly to assume that just because it’s possible for the walls to come down fast, that they will. Integration, true integration beyond the superficial migration of humans across imaginary national lines takes years of respect, understanding, mistakes, and the recitification of those mistakes. It is my genuine hope that there will be a day where the Mister Wong cartoons of the world are not offensive to me. But that day is not today, and that day is not going to come any faster just because somebody in German leaves a nasty comment on a website.
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 2:03 pm | Permalink
akrypti wrote:
I heart courageous kiwi, too! =D
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 2:08 pm | Permalink
Jesse! wrote:
courageous kiwi for the win!
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
marc wrote:
@couragous kiwi
I think laughing about stereotypes is a good way of releasing cultural tensions. After all, making fun of each other is much healthier than ignoring each other. … But maybe even that assumption is just part of my culture and other people may have a completely different view on it.
Although it’s not directly related to the topic, I wanted to add: Asians (mainly Vietnamese) are one of the most popular and most integrated ethnic groups in Germany. And that’s not just because of the food!
… I don’t claim that racism is not a problem, as it is everywhere around the world. But I am sure that it is neither the reason for nor fueled by such drawings as the Mister Wong logo.
However, as I said before, business is not necessarily the right place for intercultural discussions.
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 4:04 pm | Permalink
Magnum wrote:
What if they redesigned the logo so it looked more like a smiling Chinese man holding flowers as a hammer and sickle flag shimmers in the background? That’s the type of propaganda cartoons created by the Chinese government. Or how about a panda bear? The company should come up with some type of new logo. What works?
Posted on 02-Aug-07 at 9:44 pm | Permalink
Philipp Lenssen wrote:
> Incidentally, after reading Google Blogoscoped’s article,
> for the record I have NOT accused Mister-Wong.com of racism;
Neither did my Google Blogoscoped article say that
The only part containing the word “racism” was a quote from Spiegel (which by the way didn’t specifically refer to you).
Posted on 04-Aug-07 at 2:51 am | Permalink
Oliver wrote:
Ernie, after people here on this very blog thought it funny to liken Mr. Wong to throwing any and all white people, Polish, Russian, French, English and Americans into one pot with Adolf Hitler, precisely who is flaming around here?
As to the constant talk about “sound business decisions”, this is still merely an attempt to deny goodwill on Kai’s part and pretends it was done for business. Get a reality check. The Mistubishi Pajero was renamed solely within markets with a significant spanish-speaking community, not all over the planet. Kai removed the cartoon, period. What this means is that a minority even within the US has forced the globe to adjust. You can celebrate that, but if anything, in that context, it demonstrates a very questionable attitude regarding prejudice and racism on your part. As you admitted yourself on another blod, your concerns were specific in the context of American media. Your projecting those concerns on non-US media is nothing short of declaring “They’re all the same.” This has nothing to do with PC or non-PC, but not knowing with whom you have an axe to grind. If you have a beef with American media, your target is American media. As it stands, far from fighting prejudice, you have managed to promote it: The prejudice of the ugly American who expects the world to conform to his ideas.
@courageous kiwi:
I disagree with you. What you are suggesting is precisely the opposite of what you claim. You don’t run around shaving Sikhs. But here, we have precisely the case that someone demands someone else do something. And if the Sikhs told you to grow a beard because otherwise, looking at you is offensive, would you?
I work at the european subsidiary of a Japanese company. Do we have a japanese company culture? No. Do we have a strictly European company culture? No, there’s way too many Japanese people working there. So what do we have? A mixture, with Europeans and Japanese BOTH adjusting and demonstrating tolerance for the habits and culture of the other, knowing fully well that in an international forum of any kind -and the internet is one, too- you have to give as well as take. Your suggestion “Do unto others as they would have you do unto them” is plain and simple nonsense. First, it can never work, because you will never fully know what they would have you do unto them, and because this world, unfortunately, is not ideal. So we will forever have to live with suboptimal solutions. He who goes around expecting to be treated in such a fashion can be labelled only one thing: Arrogant. But far more: People don’t always want themselves to be treated in a way that’s most beneficial for them. So what you are proclaiming here is that because the Japanese colleague is sitting there and not uttering a word, because he is afraid to make a fool of himself with his imperfect english, he should be left sitting there. And if the company goes bankrupt over it, so be it -he has to be treated as he wants to be treated. He shouldn’t be encouraged and coaxed into speaking English, be shown that nobody makes fun of him, and actually brought to practice his English, so that one day, he can be proud of his foreign-language skills, no: According to what you propagate, he should be left miring in his totally unnecessary shame.
Let me say that: With friends like these, people don’t need enemies anymore.
Posted on 04-Aug-07 at 5:09 am | Permalink
courageous kiwi wrote:
I usually make it a point not to debunk irrelevant examples that are used to prove a point, but sometimes, if an argument is made on absolutely no basis at all, I can at least stop fallacies from poisoning the blogosphere. If lack of reading comprehension and argumentative fallacies were sexy encounters with the fairer gender, then I think I should start addressing you as ‘Mr. Chamberlain.’
First of all, Oliver, you’re right in the point that you cannot apply a single rule in every single instance. There’s no such thing as a “categorical imperative” for treating people, and certainly, neither the Golden Rule nor any related variations can be applied point-for-point to every single real world situation that could possibly arise. Simply because an exception to a concept exists, however abstract, universally inapplicable or downright ambiguous the concept, does not completely dismiss the concept as irrelevant. The point I was making was that “treat others as they would have you treat them” is a better rule than “treat others the way you would want to be treated,” especially when we are talking about cross cultural relations. No, you can’t apply the damn rule to everything, but you can and should use the rule as a basis for making a decision about how to treat another person who may not share your belief systems. Thank you for pointing out that a sentence cannot be taken literally! You have opened my eyes.
I’m not even sure how to respond to the rest of your post. Do you read before you type? I can’t make head or tails of your logic. First, you put words in everyones’ mouths, then you follow that with a string of fallacies, incorrect word usages, some pathetic semblance of a personal story which proves my point much more than it proves your, and an apparent perception that simply because a person has difficulty communicating with others in a foreign country, he does not want to be able to communicate with others in a foreign country. To save everyone on this board a lot of reading, I’m just going to say what everyone here knows: I’m smarter than you. I make more money than you. And I had sexual intercourse with your mother. In the anus.
Posted on 06-Aug-07 at 11:07 pm | Permalink
Akrypti wrote:
Hahaha. Touche, Mr. Courageous Kiwi.
And with that, I think there’s nothing more anyone can say for this thread.
Posted on 07-Aug-07 at 6:30 am | Permalink
Akrypti wrote:
Oliver,
No one threw all people of Caucasian descent into the same pot as Hitler.
Re: “still merely an attempt to deny goodwill on Kai’s part and pretends it was done for business” — huh? I’ve mentioned repeatedly now our appreciation for Kai and the Mister Wong web team’s good faith efforts and no one denies there wasn’t a shred of malice in the original intention. So…what are you talking about? The prudent business judgment rationale that people here keep raising refers to the fact that they didn’t *change* the logo because of 8Asians; they changed it because it is prudent business judgment to do so *IF* they want to break into the U.S. market.
Like what Courageous Kiwi noted, I don’t even know how to respond to the rest of your arguments because it makes no logical sense.
Re: “Let me say that: With friends like these, people don’t need enemies anymore.” HUH?! We’re friends? Puh-lease. At best, we’re strangers with dissenting opinions.
Posted on 07-Aug-07 at 6:40 am | Permalink
pete wrote:
“No one threw all people of Caucasian descent into the same pot as Hitler.”
actually Akrypti, Oliver continues to miss the point and I’m guessing he’s still working off the assumption that I think all Caucasians = Hitler (which is great because that makes it clear O understood nothing in my last reply to him)
“Ernie, after people here on this very blog thought it funny to liken Mr. Wong to throwing any and all white people, Polish, Russian, French, English and Americans into one pot with Adolf Hitler, precisely who is flaming around here?”
of course what O refuses to see is that by the same rationale a single problematic Asian icon marginalizes the cultural specificity of Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Indonesian, etc. along with the myriad historical struggles Asian Americans have had to go through. He’s so hung up on the content I used to make a point (with perhaps a little too much spice) that he can’t see any points made beyond it. Which suggests to me that this guy is only sensitive to the struggles of populations he identifies with. zero capacity to recognize the struggles of others. even when you point them out.
“People don’t always want themselves to be treated in a way that’s most beneficial for them.”
it’s a no win situation with this guy when that kind of claim is used to make a point. honestly, i’d say this kind of thinking has very clear fascistic tendencies.
Posted on 08-Aug-07 at 9:37 am | Permalink
8 Asians » Mister Wong Launches International Logo Contest wrote:
[...] you aim the international flame thrower, this post is not going there. We are all going to settle down and make love, not war. Or in this case, we are going to make art, [...]
Posted on 09-Aug-07 at 2:41 pm | Permalink
8Asians.com » MSG150, or “When White People Review Chinese Restaurants”: An Asian American/Asian Canadian Blog wrote:
[...] Buck-toothed squinty eyed mascot defended vehemently by Germans [...]
Posted on 02-Apr-08 at 12:48 pm | Permalink
Post a Comment