In this disturbing article from BBC News, British-Asian women (re: Indian-British) are desperately seeking methods to fake their virginity to conceal their sexual activity to their families and future husbands. Some simply lie while others use fake blood or even resort to hymen restoration surgery (!!!) to “prove” their virginity.
When Kully (name changed), now a mother of two, got married, she knew there was no way she could have told her husband she was not a virgin. She simply lied. “I did worry the first time we were going to have sex, what would happen? What if he said ‘you’re not a virgin’?”
Yeah, what would happen if Kully’s husband found out she wasn’t a virgin? Would the walls of their house come falling down? Would Brahma or Allah send thunderbolts of lightening down to castrate her husband? Would she all of a sudden develop vagina dentata? I’ll tell you what SHOULD happen: Absolutely nothing. In this day and age, a woman’s virginity or lack there of should have no bearing on her “worth” as an individual.
The fact that this sort of cultural misogyny is allowed to survive with narily a raised eyebrow within the Asian community is both frustrating and confounding. One would hope and think that women and men, raised and schooled in the British social tradition, would seek to abandon old world gender stereotypes and instead embrace more progressive views on gender relations and marriage.
And people wonder why Asian women are increasingly willing to date and marry outside of their racial and ethnic groups…
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Robert wrote:
Oh, please.
Here we go again; trying to rationalize the issue of interracial dating and marriage habits by placing blame or at least insinuating that all the blame be placed on Asian men. Using this tactic is only going to antagonize Asian men even more and tone you out. I’ve never even heard an Asian woman in existence acknowledge that a big cause of the problem is also Asian American women and their arrogance in the dating scene. The Asian American female demographic is absolutely rife with Asian women that constantly bash Asian men. I’ve rarely, if ever, heard of other women bash the men of their own racial background as much as Asian women have. I can point you to countless articles and publications written by Asian American women to prove this fact.
Get off your high horse and acknowledge that both sides are part of the problem. Then again, it’s much easier to blame someone else rather than fess up to your own shortcomings.
See, I started to agree with your post and have personally started to condemn sexism not only in Asian America but across all racial demographics but after reading this article and others like it, I’ve actually started to harbor the belief that Asian women aren’t interested in solving anything. All they want to do is bitch about every little thing Asian men do incorrect as an excuse to justify their own interracial relationships and social reasons for doing so.
You’re a window. It’s very easy to see right through you. Many people, minus Asian people, are also starting to see it as well.
Posted on 04-Mar-08 at 8:27 pm | Permalink
Robert wrote:
Two smaller points:
1.) I find it funny that minorities are always ranting, bitching, complaining, and whining about being stereotyped by white people. In fact, you look like you fall into that ultra-PC crowd. What’s ironic is that minorities have a habit of stereotyping themselves! Your last line just stereotyped that Asian men as the sole reason for Asian women dating and marrying out at a record pace.
2.) I challenge you, or any other socially “enlightened” Asian woman, to write up a thesis on what Asian *women* are doing incorrectly in regards to this issue. I have already recruited an Asian American man, who isn’t a pushover like many other Asian American men are in terms of this subject, to write an essay critiquing Asian American men and their faults in terms of this topic. Note when I said “not a pushover,” I’m talking about an Asian American man who *is* willing to accept fault on behalf of his demographic but don’t go around saying “all is fine and well! Date out as much as you want! Us Asian men will be waiting around for you like loyal dogs!”
Posted on 04-Mar-08 at 8:47 pm | Permalink
Anita wrote:
Robert, I’m not sure how, in the case of this post, you expect women to take blame. Did you read the article that was linked to this post? Be glad you are not one of those women who have to stress and lose sleep over this. Or are you saying that they should be blamed because they should have remained virgins? It seems to me that you are taking Bo’s last sentence out of context.
Posted on 04-Mar-08 at 9:14 pm | Permalink
Obi wrote:
From my part, I do believe that lumping all Asians in one huge block is illogical. Asians from the Indian subcontinent and the South East represent one heck of a huge percentage, for the population of the planet.
I have only ([personally) encountered the importance of being a virgin bride in particularly backward cultures. As a man who grew up in Britain; I would not expect my bride to be that inexperienced.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 1:11 am | Permalink
Jen wrote:
why is everything always about the man’s point of view? Can we please think about the woman’s point of view for once? This article clearly did not state anything about the males….both males and females are a product of society and social values.
As Bo points out, by marrying someone outside their ethnicity, the brides become free of the restrictive social values.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 7:50 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
Wow…aren’t you guys defensive. And bringing WAY to much baggage to this subject. The point I was trying to make in this post is that some old world cultural norms have no place in modern western society - and if a person chooses to retain arcane ideas about gender they will have to deal with the consequences. Consequences that may include women looking elsewhere for love and partnership.
But since you boys decided to go there…
Asian men have got to stop playing victim mentality when it comes to the issue of inter-racial dating. Rather than blame Asian women, have you ever considered honestly looking at yourselves and asking the question “Is there something about my behavior that may be partially fueling dissension in the ranks?” Having grown up in a first generation Asian household within a largely Asian community (Flushing, Queens) I can speak first hand about how pervasive Asian patriarchial attitudes (re:male chauvinism) negatively impacted the unconscious behavior and attitudes of the 2nd and 3rd generation Asian boys I grew up with. I spent the better half of my teen years railing against the instituionalized misogyny in my Asian community. As an adult I never consciously set out to date a white man. Rather, I wanted to be in a relationship with someone who’s value system and interests most aligned with my own. The fact that my partner happens to be white should not be interpreted as some sort of self-loathing or arrogance. It is simply the result of finding someone who actually validates my view of the world and how I want to live in it. With that said, you men have now inspired me to write a post about my own personal views about the whole inter-racial dating dynamic.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 7:53 am | Permalink
Obi wrote:
Who is being defensive?
I have encountered many cultures that have the patriarchal misogynist attitudes. Unfortunately, not just in South East or Indian Subcontinental cultures.
I’ve never personally dated Asian women, although I have lived with them. Having grown up in a household of strong women, I did find some cultures too submissive to the patriarch.
As for the Indian culture; the social norms are enforced by the older women of the man’s family.
We have had cases in Britain of so-called “honour killings” being enacted on the orders of the older women. One case was against a Sikh Grandmother.
It is still primarily the men who have the blinkered attitudes towards the woman’s place in the home.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 8:18 am | Permalink
Xxxtine wrote:
I think what it really boils down to is the older generation, unwilling to take into account that times have change and the society in where their children/ grandchildren live, work and play are vastly different from what they remember it to be.
I remember reading an article about the hymen restoration procedure done on a woman of Indian descent, who was unfortunately raped, but couldn’t let the family of the groom know that she had been.
While on the surface, it may seem REALLY misogynistic, in actuality, I would bet that 8 times out of 10 it’s the mother of the groom who insists that their daughter-in-law be untouched before their son’s wedding. The guy, most times, just needs to get over the issue that they weren’t the first (happens more often than people may think - but most do get over it). The mother-in-law … completely different story - worse, if the mother of the mother-in-law is still around and holds a strong matriarchal position among the grandchildren.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 9:37 am | Permalink
irony wrote:
this debate would be settled if we can all agree that: 1) institutionalized patriarchy and misogyny no longer exist in modern Western societies. esp thanks to the liberating/empowering “British social tradition.”
2) however, institutionalized patriarchy and misogyny are still the provinces of the “Old World” (translation: un-modern and un-Western societies, such as those found in Asia). not enough Youtube, McDonalds, and reruns of “Sex in the City” perhaps.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 11:42 am | Permalink
Robert wrote:
You’re not serious, are you?
Do you just read certain aspects that you can address and ignore the rest of someone’s post?
I didn’t say that Asian women *or* men should harbor all of the blame at all. Whatever Asian men do, it will affect Asian women. Whatever Asian women do, it will affect Asian men.
That being said, it’s important to grasp the aspect of common sense. While Asian society does harbor sexism, it’s not really different than traditional white society. What you implied with your last jab was that Asian society was somehow prone to sexism while letting other racial groups go free.
The whole interracial dating issue is an aspect that must be acknowledged by BOTH groups but this “discussion” hasn’t gotten anywhere because 1.) no one is asking the correct questions and 2.) no one wants to take responsibility for anything their group does.
For instances, I will acknowledge that one of the complaints is traditional gender roles which leads to sexism. However, I want Asian women to acknowledge that one of their complaints is that Asian men are insecure. Now, do you honestly expect Asian men to be extremely confident when North American society has completely emasculated them *and* to see Asian women *prove* that fact by dating the same demographic that is responsible for the emasculation in the first place.
You’re essentially proving white men that they’re correct.
This leads Asian men to become even more insecure which causes more Asian women to date white men.
This is so easy to grasp and I’m honestly aghast that seemingly educated Asian Americans can’t even understand this very simply concept. It all comes down to common sense.
Another example, Asian men tend to “boring” or “straight laced.” Fine, I’ll acknowledge that some of my Asian friends are like this. Now, let’s see if we can get Asian women to acknowledge that there are many Asian women that refuse to date Asian men because of widely held stereotypes.
Again, take my challenge. I want to see if *any* Asian American woman out there is able to draft up a thesis on what Asian American women are doing incorrectly in regards to the interracial dating and marriage issue.
Asian Americans…..
Book smart but not particularly street smart.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 8:18 pm | Permalink
Robert wrote:
Also, don’t even bother writing an article and how it “inspired” you to write your very own post on this topic because these types of posts from Asian American women always pans out the same way.
It consists of the following:
1.) It’s my life and I do what I want.
2.) It’s all the Asian male’s fault.
3.) I don’t have a white fetish nor do any other Asian women out there.
4.) It’s never Asian women that are at fault. Our shit smells like Cinnabuns.
5.) Asian men should do all the work, Asian women should do none because it’s not our fault.
6.) If an Asian male complains, it’s only because he “can’t get some,” is a loser, has no game, and is just bitter. Oh, he’s also short. I also do this to black people when they complain by belittling their concerns by labeling any type of discontent as the ramblings of the “angry black man.”
7.) Interracial dating is good, no matter what. It doesn’t hurt anyone. It’s a victimless crime because it’s like punching someone in the dark.
There; already written. Just slap your signature on it and you’re good to go. Asian women should try using that as a template.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 8:30 pm | Permalink
Akrypti wrote:
Wow I think I’m illiterate because see I read this post and totally did not realize it was actually about interracial dating and how great the white man is. Thanks for clue, Robert. Here I was about to write a totally unrelated comment about how fucked up it is to repress women into objects measuring a man’s self-worth because his own right, his own identity, his own choices in life, his own accomplishments are not enough to make him feel like a “complete man.” Here I was about to write about how society and other Asian women owe a duty to change the conditions so that these women wouldn’t feel like there was no alternative but to fake their virginity and either marry a guy who does NOT care about their virginity (who in more cases than not happen to be non-Asian) OR blatantly lie about the virginity and base their marriage to an Asian man on this big lie. Here I thought the article was about a feminist and gender equality issue.
Oops.
It was really about you feeling crappy about your own self-worth. Your’e just as bad as the men cited in the article, Robert. Why does a woman’s choice, a woman completely unrelated to your life, have any bearing on how manly you feel? If every single Asian woman on this planet refused to date white and only dated Asian men, would you feel more manly then?
Come on, sisters! Let’s all date Asian men only from now on and be racist so that our dear Robert can feel a little more manly!!
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 9:12 pm | Permalink
Anita wrote:
Xxxtine, you have a good point. When we were researching adopting a baby from China, I read of many accounts where a newborn girl was abandoned due to extreme pressure on the baby’s parents by their families, especially the baby’s paternal grandmother.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 9:15 pm | Permalink
Anita wrote:
Akrypti, I love everything you write.
Posted on 05-Mar-08 at 9:42 pm | Permalink
Obi wrote:
Too many misogynists still in control and unfortunate that there are women supporting the patriarchal status quo.
From my reading, the women of the household would hold power over their sons and can hold the reigns, but they would do so to support their sons; as they see it.
In Indian cultures; this could entail subjugating their daughter-in-law, having female foetuses aborted and up to having them murdered for possessing a paltry dowry. In the Chinese, the grandparents inserting needles into their granddaughters.
Posted on 06-Mar-08 at 1:04 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
Wow! It’s amazing how certain people like to project their own sense of inadequacy on other people. That’s all I have to say about that. Akrypti did a much better job than I could anyway.
Per the comments about maternal pressure - good point. Alas, misogyny is not the sole domain of men. Matriarches in many cultures are responsible for maintaining ideas and practices that demean, terrorize and devalue women. From female infanticide to female genital mutilization - it’s amazing how normalized violence against women is in so many cultures. Even in our supposedly progressive western society, you still often see rape victims being blamed for being raped.
As I was trying to point out in my post, it is the responsibility of the next generation of Asians (hopefully more enlightened) to challenge old world notions of appropriate gender roles.
Nuff said…
Posted on 06-Mar-08 at 6:34 am | Permalink
Xxxtine wrote:
High Five to Akrypti!
Posted on 06-Mar-08 at 10:09 am | Permalink
Robert wrote:
It’s impossible not talk about the interracial issue when the author last sentence states “And people wonder why Asian women are increasingly willing to date and marry outside of their racial and ethnic groups.” I wasn’t the one who brought the whole interracial dating issue into the spotlight; the author did by issuing the last line as a jab towards Asian society, specially Asian men. Like I said before, had she ended the article minus that last part, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with the entry, supported it, and left it at that.
In fact, I still support it but to say that I was the one who brought it up is incorrect.
Also, regarding on how Asian men rate their self worth on being attractive to women isn’t new and it’s not only related to Asian men. It’s a fact that men who know they are wanted by women greatly increases a man’s sense of self worth and confidence. It’s not only men either. Women have that feeling too. I don’t think Asian women would feel too confident with themselves either if they were constantly portrayed as undesirable. While it shouldn’t comprise all of a man’s sense of confidence but to say that it shouldn’t is just plain ignorant. There are many Asian guys I know that have met Asian women who state they strongly prefer or only date Asian men. Their confidence perks up almost instantly. However, feed it too much and Asian men will become arrogant.
My main point is that while sexism is rife in Asian society, it’s pretty much a stereotype to say that Asian men are more prone to harbor this view. Also, if you want to get what you want, you have to sweet talk your way to the counter-party. Screaming at someone to give you want you want is going to antagonize them and cause resistance. IE: If Asian women started saying that they understand why Asian men are upset at the issue and what they can do to correct their problems while also working your own concerns into the discussion, you’ll find Asian men to be much more receptive. See, the problem I see with almost all these liberal types is that they keep thinking of how things *should* work rather than how things *really* work in the real world. While admirable, it’s very unrealistic. The proper way is to slowly ease yourself into it.
Again, I have yet to see a smart Asian American woman write an article on what they’re doing incorrectly. Not once have I seen Asian American women correct their own when they write or post articles on why Asian men are “undesirable” while white men are “praised.”
I’m not even going to humor you and bring my personal life into this. If you want to pawn me off by attacking me rather than my point, that’s fine. You’ve just proven my theory correct in that Asian women always blow off this argument as the rantings of a “bitter” Asian man. Eh, I’m perfectly fine the way I am but like I said before, I’ve seen Asian men become much more accommodating to Asian women after finding out some Asian women prefer them. I’m just sick and tired of Asian Americans whining back and forth because it almost ultimately becomes a gender conflict where neither side wants to listen to the other because they’re too selfish.
Also, choosing not to date outside your race doesn’t necessarily make you racist, as you seem to insinuate, Akrypti. Nor does someone dating outside their race mean that they’re not racist. I treat my non-Asian friends just as well as my Asian friends but choosing to stick with my Asian girlfriend doesn’t mean I’m racist.
Posted on 06-Mar-08 at 6:11 pm | Permalink
Alpha wrote:
Hey everyone,
I appreciated many of the comments of the debate from both sides. I agree very much with the original post about the pressure placed on women to maintain their virginity.
But hey have you noticed, this phenomenon and the whole thing about marrying within your race and social caste is a pretty big Inidan/Pakistani/Sub-continental thing?
you guys and gals have your arguments confused - when they talk abput Asian marrying/dating outside their race, they mainly mean East Asians, not sub-continentals.
Of course like any complicated argument in history both sides have a point - the Asian men and women. think of the Gaza strip conflict, , you get my drift?
But what we are missing here is the fundamental fact of human nature - what is theoretically right and wrong means jack-sh:t when it’s placed in the real world context.
Asian are somewhat boring because they have been raised to be ‘bookish. Asian women do have a white fetish because they are raised in a society where white men are portrayed as Adonis and Asian men are emasculated.
Okay, theory aside, here’s the reality.
They are having this same debate in China about who’s right who’s wrong yet, 30Mil girl babies ‘disappeared’ at birth - that’s the female under 35 shortage in China.
we can debate who’s right and who’s wrong in the Western world but the fact is many asian women marry/date outside their races, much more than any other race of women and Asin men doesn’t have the same participation.
The reason - has any class or race of men with wealth and class in history ever had problems finding females and has females as a collective group ever tried to marry/date teh poor, lesser social class men rather than the higher social status men?
There is little point to argue, humans are fraile animals who take ther sue frim their surrounds, the Asian men grow up bookish and the Asian women grow up with a white fetish.
The only thing that matters in history is -
who writes it!
When China, Japan, India, Korea are the super powers of the world and white guys are the waiters in all the movies and V series and real life and people of African origins are depicted as who they really are as oipposed to the ‘cool hip, gangster, sporty ‘ people they are - who do you think will get the women?????????
I say to all Asian men, we are the sacrificial lamb of a generation where interracial dating had become aceptable yet Asia is not standing onteh same platform as everyone else yet.
The other people can find all the excuses they want but the truth is, in 50 years or less, China and India will rule the world, teh box office and TV ratings and models used on commercials will be Asian or eurasisan who look more Asian anyway - who do you think will own the world?
This present phenomenon is only ephmeral - the world changes from one group of power brokers to another.
Guess what, i met some of the dudes from mainland China and India, the very people who will rule the future, they are a little raicst aginst people of dark skin and also people who have colonised them - what do you think they will dowhen they are the SUPERPOWERS???????????
Posted on 07-Mar-08 at 5:40 am | Permalink
8Asians.com » Son Bias & Misogyny: An Asian American/Asian Canadian Blog wrote:
[...] when you discover you’re carrying a member of the XX? Why do you retain antiquated ideas of female worth (re: virginity)? Why do you make us feel less worthy and valuable then our male counterparts? [...]
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 8:35 am | Permalink
cloaca wrote:
What if you’re a virgin and you expect your wife to be one? (Nobody seems to be bringing up this situation)
Posted on 11-May-08 at 8:14 am | Permalink
HL wrote:
To Robert,
First of all, “…regarding on how Asian men rate their self worth on being attractive to women isn’t new and it’s not only related to Asian men”–this article is not about how Asian men rate their self worth on being attractive to women.
Secondly, “…it’s pretty much a stereotype to say that Asian men are more prone to harbor this view”–it’s just Asian men, influenced by their elderlies, are more likely to harbour this view, but not a stereotype.
Third, “…if you want to get what you want, you have to sweet talk your way to the counter-party”—is this too of material gain and does it make the love impure?
Fourth, “…the problem I see with almost all these liberal types is that they keep thinking of how things *should* work rather than how things *really* work in the real world. While admirable, it’s very unrealistic. The proper way is to slowly ease yourself into it”–I don’t quite understand why the idea of making the world better is not realistic, and you have to and give up the dream of making the world better, in order to adapt to the real world.
Fifth, “…I have yet to see a smart Asian American woman write an article on what they’re doing incorrectly”—this is an article on what one example of the problems is with Asian men, but not to say that what Asian women have done noting wrong.
Sixth, “Not once have I seen Asian American women correct their own when they write or post articles on why Asian men are ‘undesirable’ while white men are ‘praised’”—it is not mentioned anywhere that Asian men are “undesirable”, but points out that there are problems with some Asian men who are influenced by the traditional values. Also, this article does not praise white men.
Seventh, “I’m just sick and tired of Asian Americans whining back and forth because it almost ultimately becomes a gender conflict where neither side wants to listen to the other because they’re too selfish”—this article is not a whining, and neither a representation of gender conflict, but in fact, far from it. It is just merely a statement of the fact. As a matter of fact, you are the other selfish side who does not want to listen.
Last but not least, whether dating out or in is not related to being a racist at all, but rather, someone who validates our value and view.
Posted on 15-Sep-08 at 4:09 pm | Permalink