So a couple of days ago, I gave a lecture for a good friend’s class in SFSU’s Asian American Studies Department on HIV/AIDS and the queer API men’s community. It brought up a lot of interesting memories, since I used to teach and lecture about the history and sociology of queer Asian American men in grad school, and it’s something that I haven’t really touched or thought about in ages since I made my dad really happy, er, left sociology grad school and decided to try to get into pharmacy school to improve people’s health outcomes more directly (and make more money doing it) .
Going through my notes and old bookmarked websites that I used for my research to prepare for this lecture, I came across a site that I hadn’t really been on in years, called downelink.com, a social networking site originally designed by and for queer Asians to date each other. The website’s based on the term “downe”, an expression first used by Asian men who wanted to date each other, but didn’t necessarily identify as gay/bi/queer/whatever in the mid-1990s, on AOL chat (that shows you how old I am, AND how long I’ve been involved in the community). Downe was more commonly used by West Coast (SF and LA) queer Asian men in their 20s at the time, who identified more strongly as queer men of color, rather than with the mainstream gay white men’s community, and who saw each other as friends and potential lovers, rather than rivals to date white men.
Downe isn’t the same thing as the down-low, another term used to vilify closeted queer men of color (usually black men) but that’s another thing entirely.
I remember being curious and interested as the term became popular among the queer Asian youth that I would hang out with a few years ago. I started to see it as a way to define young queer Asian men who refused to identify with the mainstream gay white culture whose emphasis on expressing individuality at the expense of one’s family and cultural identity was being actively rejected. Those who identified as downe wanted to integrate one’s sexuality with one’s ethnic/racial identity, and that ultimately identifying as being into the same sex/gender didn’t automatically mean rejecting one’s Asian-ness, and that those who identified as downe were mostly queer Asian men who wanted to date (and hook up) with each other.
Of course, now that downelink.com has been bought by Logo, I’m not exactly sure how progressive this term is anymore. Even now, as the term’s become more popularized among queer Asians, it seems that downe has now become interchangeable with using gay or bi. The site itself is now mostly populated by young queer people of color (according to one blog, 72% of all users are Asian, African American or Latino), mostly Asian/Pacific Islander men and women, and seems to be one of the few spaces out there that actually exist for these people to really meet that’s not like MySpace or Facebook.
However, talking to a guy who’s doing his master’s thesis at SFSU on the term downe and the young queer Filipino American men’s community, he said that he couldn’t pinpoint a common agreeable definition . “Ask 5 people what downe means, and you’ll get 5 different answers,” he said.
So to all my fellow queer folk who read this, what DOES downe mean? Is the term even relevant to the community? I’ve always felt more comfortable using “queer” to define myself, but downe seems to have been milked for all its worth (especially if the downelink website was bought by an MTV affiliate!).
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Dennis wrote:
First time I’ve even heard of the term downe, but I may have heard it and assumed it meant “down low”.
Posted on 07-Apr-08 at 7:57 am | Permalink
Ernie wrote:
Oh man, I’ll have to forward this to a bunch of my friends that identity for with the downe scene. One of whom, ironically, is my ex-boyfriend. The downe scene definitely isn’t closeted though; while it might be more closeted compared to mainstream gay culture, it’s not really an underground network of married Asian men either. Though that’s kinda hot.
As far as downelink being bought out by Logo, I don’t know what to think about that. Aren’t they actively trying to move away from being typecast as the mainstream gay TV network? Even though they totally are?
Posted on 07-Apr-08 at 9:05 am | Permalink
Cat_D wrote:
Wow, the last time I used “down” was in college when every QPOC was on downelink. It stuck around for a while, until “queer” started catching on.
“Downe” to me means a bunch of things, being “interested”, “informed”, “in on things” … I guess the buzz word here is being “in”
Thanks for the mention, I should check my account… or not, hah!
Posted on 07-Apr-08 at 9:11 am | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Ernie: Well, it’s not so much married Asian men, it was more for just young queer Asians who didn’t feel comfortable using gay or queer. Though I do agree, a network of hot married Asian men doing each other does sound hot.
I remember when I was doing my research that downe was used more by relatively closeted queer people, but as they became more acclimated to the whole scene, they were more comfortable using LGBTQ.
Cat_D: LOL…I’ve always been more comfortable with using queer than downe since it seemed that it was a term used by people around 2000/2001/etc. I first saw the site when i was in my late 20s, and by that time, I was already comfortable with being out, so the term downe didn’t really fit me at all. Though when I was in soc grad school, the sudden appearance and popularity of the term was something that I really wanted to explore for my dissertation (until I found out I was the only person who was even doing this kind of research and no one else had any idea what the fuck I was talking about…:) )
Posted on 07-Apr-08 at 9:30 am | Permalink
stan wrote:
Wow, I think it’s great that you used to do sociological studies on queer asian american men.. That’s commendable and definitely great. I remember doing research years ago for my sociology papers and realizing there was a lack of resources for me… But of course, now that has changed for the better by quite a bit… You got big bonus points for me for doing that!
And since we’re thinking about the past, there used to be a web-site, gayzn.com that for me really helped me connect as a queer asian-american in Puerto rico with other queer asian-americans. It’s gone now, sadly.
I’ve never heard of the term “downe” before, and I’m really piqued by it. I’m thinking about going back to school to finish my sociological studies, so it’s always great to hear about others’ experiences.
Posted on 07-Apr-08 at 5:50 pm | Permalink
Cat_D wrote:
stan: I was on gayzn.com, too! I think I was the only consistent lesbo there, har har har
Posted on 08-Apr-08 at 1:37 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
I have never heard of the term “downe,” probably because I am the wrong kind of lesbian.
Posted on 08-Apr-08 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Stan: Well, there _is_ stuff out there, unfortunately, unless you’re hooked into the whole queer API academic/intelligentsia network, it’s hard to access it. There’s a whole bunch of people who do work about and/or in the queer API community, and we all tend to know each other (or at least we’ve heard of each other!) but most of us are in grad school or scattered throughout the country.
and Grace: I think I’m the wrong kind of queer guy myself, and I always had this weird relationship with “downe” myself. Again, I think it’s a generational thing (if you can call a gap of about 10 years generational!) AND a west coast thing. Meh.
Posted on 08-Apr-08 at 10:47 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
unless you’re hooked into the whole queer API academic/intelligentsia network, it’s hard to access it
Again, I think it’s a generational thing (if you can call a gap of about 10 years generational!)
I was president of my gay organization in grad school, older than Gen Y (forget AOL chat… I remember logging into BBSes on my 1200 baud modem), on a queer API mailing list, and I still haven’t heard of “downe.” Mah.
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 6:35 am | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Grace: OMG, were you on QAPA-L in the early 90s? I was on it when I was still a closeted, confused undergrad. There weren’t too many queer Asian lists back then anyway, though I wonder whatever happened to Jen Ting. She seemed to disappear off the face of the earth…
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 7:22 am | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
Nope, see - in the mid 90s when I was an undergrad, I was so confused that I thought I was straight. I only mentioned dial up modems to prove that I am an old fart. I didn’t come out until I was 25 - way after college. However, you’d think that SOMEONE would have told me about this “downe” thing, considering all the APA queers I’ve come across since then. (The mailing list I’m referring to is Q-Wave, which is a more recent list.)
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 10:45 am | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Heh, so I _AM_ older than you!
I remember having to get on line using dialup AND shells in the early 90s, and then remember being really excited that I could actually do IP dial-up connections back in ‘95 *sigh*.
Anyway, Q-WAVE is a dyke list based in NYC that I didn’t know of until a couple years ago, if I remember correctly (I actually have a lot of friends from SF who moved to NYC and are all part of Q-WAVE now).
As I stated before, downe is more of a fag thing than a dyke thing, just from what I’ve seen, and not to mention that it’s really a Cali thing, which would probably explain why you haven’t heard of it all that much. The cultures are totally different from West Coast and East Coast, especially since I remember my dyke friends taking me and my partner out to the Web in NYC (yawn), but then we had a much better time when they took us to a Blatino club in Queens just a couple miles away (though we WERE the only Asians in there-hehe!).
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 10:54 am | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
Well I just went over to Urbandictionary to see what “downe” is all about. It looks like it means that one is intentionally low key about one’s sexuality but not in the closet.
Let me take a stab at this. Back in the day when I was a clueless college freshman, the people who were out on campus were really loud about their sexuality. The girls chopped off their hair and turned into raging dykebots. The boys were really flamboyant and in your face. To a sheltered naif like me, I found the display of overt sexuality to be quite alienating and obnoxious (maybe this was my Asian-ness coming out, but that’s another story for another time). My confused adolescent mind equated “gay” with being a “rude outsider out to stir shit up.” Had I known I was gay back then, I probably would have taken the “downe” route. Even now, I find lesbian feminist separatists and people who spell woman with a “y” incredibly off-putting.
Nowadays, however, gays and lesbians of all types are living openly simply by being themselves. I was very much out in grad school, yet I looked and acted just like everyone else. There was a brief period of time prior to grad school where I had no idea how to be an out dyke and attempted to emulate the loudness and exhibitionism I saw in college, but I am thankful that period of my life is over.
In any event, in the 90’s, being out still embodied vestiges of the late 60’s/early 70’s gay liberation radicalization aesthetic. Being gay meant being non-normative, and being loud about such non-normativity was “cool,” and if you weren’t loud about your sexuality and displayed it with fervor, you were not seen as a legitimate queer. This type of loud proclamation of one’s sexuality by purposely sticking out is against what Asians were taught by our parents (and I suppose a lot of other minority cultures as well). Hence… the creation of “downe.”
Now, however, the gay movement has moved towards assimilation and integration, and being out and proud is no longer synonymous with being radical. Young gays and lesbians can come out of the closet nowadays and just be their normal selves and still be seen as legitimately gay, rather than “straight acting” (I hate that term - and a pox on anyone who still uses it!) So, you say “downe” seems to have petered out in the GenY crowd, and I think this may be one reason.
I could have missed the mark completely, but that’s my take on it. If this comment was laughably off the mark, blame it on my limited knowledge on the subject.
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 12:22 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Grace:
Actually, you hit that right on the mark.
If I remember correctly, downe was started by Asian men who didn’t want to hide their sexuality but at the same time, rejected the dynamic by many queer white folk at the time where self-expression (and sexuality) trumped a lot of values that Asians held dear, like family, community, etc. It’s been a double edged sword, as there are now lots and lots and lots of queer Asians who are out and happy, but there are also very few who are willing to rock the boat and take a stand by themselves against controversial issues, and those of us who do are seen as heroes but also as whitewashed. Hence, my ambivalence towards downe.
I think what the assimilation of queers into the mainstream, especially with the ability of the net to connect queers, and with the advent of “normalizing” effects such as the drive for same-sex marriage, has caused many queers, especially the white folks, that they’re no longer a minority, and it’s really freaking them out. Considering that gay white men coopted the in your face activism of the drag queens of color from the 60s and suddenly realized that they were different, and especially with AIDS distinguishing them, a lot of gay white men thought that being gay was like being a person of color (which we all know is totally false).
I think for me, coming out in the early mid-90s as queer and Asian was extremely political, especially since I (and most of my other friends) saw the queer Asian men’s community totally devastated by HIV with no real mentors. A lot of us who were in college became activists in the academic field, or in HIV social work, or became medical professionals to fight the disease, and we all became each other’s role models and support network. At the same time, we were questioning coming out, and each of us came out differently, but mostly by being ourselves, except for the fact that we were same-sex identified. I think that led some of us to creating the term “downe” as a way to show to others that it’s ok to be same-sex identified and still be proud of one’s ethnicity and other identities with the knowledge that we can’t just simply be queer, but queer and Asian (and male, etc.).
It’s funny how you note that the out queer boys were totally flamboyant and the girls as being uber-butch in college. Nearly all my friends followed that dynamic, except for me, which I think on the one hand freaked a LOT of people out because I wasn’t easily identifiable as queer, but at the same time that earned me a lot of straight allies since they had never met someone like me who was like them except for being queer. Hanging out with my college friends 10+ years later, we all look like “regular” Asian guys and girls, so I think our expressions back then were just a product of the times and the opportunity to play around with our identities in college like everybody else.
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 1:00 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
Anyway, I’m going to refrain from bloviating any further. All I’m going to say is thanks for posting about “downe.” I wish I had known about it back in the day. (Damn East Coast!) Knowing about it probably would have made the coming out process less traumatic.
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 9:48 pm | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
Oooh wait, I can’t resist making one more comment:
Re: I think what the assimilation of queers into the mainstream, especially with the ability of the net to connect queers, and with the advent of “normalizing” effects such as the drive for same-sex marriage, has caused many queers, especially the white folks, that they’re no longer a minority, and it’s really freaking them out.
It’s kind of amusing to see white queers freak out about the normalization of gays. Sometimes I feel that white queers romanticize being “the other.” It’s sort of like the bizarre phenomenon of privileged hipsters romanticizing the working class.
Posted on 09-Apr-08 at 10:04 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Yeah, I think queer whites are getting what they wished for–to see that they’re like all the other boring white people out there, but at the same time realizing now that they’re being assimilated. I think white folk are constantly trying to be different, when we people of color are already different simply by being there in their spaces.
I remember seeing all the white students (most of whom seemed to be pretty privileged backgrounds) when I was in soc grad school at UCSB trying to make themselves stand out by dying their hair, wearing different clothes, etc., and those of us who weren’t white (the majority of us being working class) felt we had more pressure on us to appear as normal as possible in order to not rock the boat and maintain balance.
It’s interesting to see that there’s so much tension about same-sex marriage, and an apparently “conservative” portion of white queers who really do want to assimilate vs. those who really want to maintain a separate identity away from the mainstream. It’s actually pretty amusing because they’re convinced that their uniqueness as “queer” will go away, while those of us who aren’t white are always gonna look like we don’t belong anyway. Frankly, I kinda like it that way.
Posted on 10-Apr-08 at 2:13 pm | Permalink