8 Asians

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• min

  I think you’d find exactly 0 Asian Males who would be against AM/WF relationships

  HAHAHA!

• http://www.erniehsiung.com/ Ernie H.

  @min What do you mean, Min?

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  I think there are two things that can be criticized as regards to *certain* interracial relationships, regardless of combination…fetishization, and if the couple decides to have kids, how the issue of race is dealt with with their biracial children. I’ve thought about those things a lot since I’m in an often much-maligned type of interracial relationship (AFWM).
  However, in the grand scheme of things, they are personal relationships, and as long as they are consensual, definitely nobody else’s business.

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @min lol. I beg to differ. I already know of several that comment on 8A that would be against AMWF.

• paparatti

  Oh *please*. I have a Chinese mother in law. At no point do any of those people even match her level of combat.

• cyrusk

  Dilution of line??? If anything it’s improving both lines. Have you visited http://half-asians.com ?

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @ErikaHarada Aye. I completely agree with that statement. If you have children, sometimes they might be “shunned” by both cultures, and how to teach them about both/either is something that has to be considered. I will say, generally speaking, it’s probably better to raise biracial kids on the west coast, than here.

  I have to say that I have yet to hear about a non-consensual IR relationship, but again, you’re indeed correct there. lol.

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @cyrusk Hey, I don’t make up the arguments, I’m just providing what I’m told.

• paparatti

  @ErnieHsiung @min I can’t see this answer being anything but racist tbh.

• Danny_Ahmed

  I think those people who are against inter-racial relationships, not just a little but totally reject them (are there far more out there who are against it a little for mainly superficial concerns than those who are 100% adamant about it), the ones who totally reject them do have issues themselves.

  Plus, if there are more inter-racial couples out there, having babies and having more of these relationships for several generations, sooner or later, we will all look like Southeast Asians.

• http://hubpages.com/profile/Pamela+N+Red PamelaNRed

  Dilution of line is a biggy on both sides. I understand that a lot being Native/white mixed. It can be confusing but at the same time people need to come to grips with the fact that like she says there are very few pure races left.

• mike_le

  I’m really bothered by how posts like this are being published on 8Asians. It’s a shallow view of race/gender and holds up strawman arguments about interracial dating.

  Dating is a personal choice. People shouldn’t be judged as individuals based on their personal dating choices. For that matter, attraction ISN’T really a choice (see: homosexuality, etc.).

  But there are valid reasons to invest time and thought into why interracial dating, in the case of Asian Americans, is so staggeringly skewed in favor of white male / Asian female couplings.

  The portrayal of the Asian male as effeminate, of the Asian female as “extra” feminine (more “culturally” subservient or sexual). The lasting impacts of anti-miscegenation laws. The lasting impacts of colonialism and the export of Hollywood media, conflated with Asian ideals about pale skin. The very real correlation between lightness of skin and socioeconomic status in this country – to the point where a dark-skinned black man with an MBA is less likely to be hired than a light-skinned black man with a bachelor’s.

  We can discuss all these things without being racist. And you can ignore all those things, through dismissal of other voices, and implicitly reinforce the structural racism in this country.

• http://www.erniehsiung.com/ Ernie H.

  @mike_le “I’m really bothered by how posts like this are being published on 8Asians.”

  You – along with anyone else – are free to write a guest blogger post or even blog for 8Asians; feel free to contact the editors at the links above for more information. Thanks!

• johnklin

  Ben,

  You must have forgotten:
  http://www.8asians.com/2009/06/08/art-talks-about-dana-in-eharmony-ad/

  John

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @johnklin Totally. I had thought match.com did one similar too, but I can’t find it so I guess they didn’t.

• A_Lee

  Alright, I’ll be the devil’s advocate here…it’s can be about racism, but it’s usually not. Seriously.

  I’ve got a childhood friend who’s parents hate the fact that he’s engaged to a white girl. They’re nice to her, but they basically pretend that he’s not engaged. They’re even trying to set him up with other girls…while he’s engaged. Are his parents racist?

  No, I don’t think so. His parents want a Chinese daughter-in-law, so that the kids can grow up in a all-Chinese family, speak Chinese, and be able to speak Chinese to their grandchildren (the parents have never lived in the US, they only know a little English.) They have nothing against white people, they think she’s a nice girl, they just have a different vision for their son’s future, and they want what they think is best for him. They want him to marry an educated, nice, Chinese girl, raising Chinese-speaking Chinese children.

  I might disagree with the level of authority his parents think they have over him, and their methods, but I don’t think it’s racism. One could argue that it is racism because this girl is being treated differently because she is white, but if differential treatment is racism, than many things on this site are racist – all the hoo-rah over Jeremy Lin, Yul Kwon, and various other Asian-American personalities. That’s not differential treatment?

  It’s not about hating other people, it’s about treasuring your own culture and heritage, and yes, you might even call it “your line”. Remember this article? “Nikkei Spirit: My Experiences at a Nikkei Youth Leader’s Summit.”

  It’s easy to dismiss people as racists or xenophobes, but its more complicated than that.

• DMan

  @PamelaNRed That is true on your point, but do you look more like a white caucasian woman. You have to understand that the Asian community in America is still small compared to blacks, hispanics and others. There are Asians out there men and women who has some pride to love and share their own culture especially living in predominate white or multiracial society. Again I am not against interracial love and marriage with a sharing of mutual culture and language. There are some like a Jon Gossellin who forgets his heritage and look how he turned out.

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @Danny_Ahmed Or we’ll all have kids like Daniel Hessey and Maggie Q.

• Boogerhead

  I can’t imagine Chinese male or female third party members caring. Maybe Chinese parents, MAYBE. But it still feels better when it is a Chinese male marrying a non Chinese female in terms of worrying if there is some disrespect going on and that is really what is going through the minds of people over unions of Asian females and WHITE males unlike Asian females and nonwhite nonAsian males. Because it’s just weird that so many intercultural unions involve a white guy as if white guys are the cream of the crop.

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  @Boogerhead That’s funny, because I know a lot of Asian males who see a hot white woman as being the “ultimate” prize but won’t even think about dating a Latina or Black woman.

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  @Boogerhead That’s not to say that AFs are not exempt from that perspective…along with pretty much any other race. Society in general tend to value whiteness over nonwhiteness.

• http://hubpages.com/profile/Pamela+N+Red PamelaNRed

  Another point that hasn’t been brought up is that the reason it is less common for Asian men to marry another race is because they carry on the family line. They don’t see the girls as carrying on the family name so it’s not as big of a deal.

  Also if they are very traditional and believe the daughter in law will take care of them when they get old they don’t think a white woman is going to be open to that idea.

• http://hubpages.com/profile/Pamela+N+Red PamelaNRed

  @A_Lee
  I have a white friend who married an Indian man and has two kids and his parents still keep trying to set him up with a proper Indian bride like his wife doesn’t exist.

• mike_le

  @ErnieHsiung I don’t want to attack you guys and I’ve been following 8Asians for a while precisely because I appreciate what your site’s about. I’m just concerned with a lot of recent posts that are just… shallow. A little editorial discretion may be warranted; otherwise I fear the dialogue here could devolve into the same racial rhetoric that plagues the mainstream.

• A_Lee

  @PamelaNRed This is exactly right. As I remarked to the girls I have dated seriously, and my current girlfriend, “I am the eldest son of the eldest son. There are certain expectations placed on me, and whomever I marry, and I expect to fulfill them.”

  It’s important, but I do think that there are plenty of non-East Asian women who are willing to take those commitments seriously. Many of these things are not particular to Confucian cultures, and many family-centric cultures have these qualities.

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  @A_Lee @PamelaNRed I wish more guys would have told me this from the get-go so I could break off that relationship and seek out other men.

• A_Lee

  @ErikaHarada White female beauty has been prized for thousands of years…even Germanic slave women were particularly prized by Roman aristocrats, and their blond hair made into wigs for Roman women. So it’s not all MTV and Hollywood. But things are turning around – as East Asian pop culture is becoming more sophisticated and confident, I think Asian female beauty will have an equal playing field.

  White men…harder to say. There is no long-standing historical tradition of white males being valued over other men in ancient cultures. White men are generally taller, and that is a significant advantage. But it is also a result of overall Western supremacy in the modern world, like a Pocahontas story writ large. In traditional marriages, women marry men for access to resources and security, and the clearly superior Western civilization gives White men more to offer. Hard for Average Joe Indian Brave with his hunting bow to compete with John Smith with his smoothbore muskets and massive ships.

  As the fortunes of East and West shift, this will probably change. Just look at the Russo-Chinese border.

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @ErikaHarada @A_Lee @PamelaNRed lol… while there were expectations of me being the eldest grandson and all, the people that I thought would be most opposed to my marriage (grandparents) were actually very supportive.

  I have to say that the whole taking care aspect is really just a discussion of whether or not your spouse is willing. I laid everything on the table for my wife before we dated, and she accepted it, just as I accepted her family and traditions. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not easy when cultures clash. But we’ve been happily together for almost ten years by knowing when to hold em, and know when to fold em (sorry, have had Kenny Rogers stuck in my head all week for some odd reason).

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @A_Lee @ErikaHarada I was actually going to point out that my mom said the Chinese and Russian border actually have a lot of villages with interracial relations. Never really thought about it, but I could totally see it happening.

• A_Lee

  @ErikaHarada It’s too bad the guys didn’t tell you first…there’s a balance between not wasting time, and assuming too much. I’m not going to tell a girl about what I want in a wife on the first date, but it’s important to lay it out soon, so we can call it quits if the writing is on the wall.

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @A_Lee That’s true. I will also point this out. Having been the token interracial relations contributor for 8A, I can say that i’ve seen more of the so called “racism” lines from anonymous comments and so on, just as Emily from the video has. It’s a lot easier for people to lash out with racist type tendencies, whereas what you’re speaking about is more of a cultural backlash imho.

  I don’t believe the latter is necessarily racism and more than likely not, but what I was getting at are usually the anon commenters that pride themselves in the whole “Asian Pride” not only degrade the great work that the API community does, but they do actually spout racial type tendencies.

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  @A_Lee Yes. It really is…whether it’s one’s desire to have kids, where one wants to live eventually etc., if there are some things that the person absolutely wants in their life, they should be open about it to their significant others! I have wasted a lot of time with guys with different goals in life than me, because they didn’t say anything when I expressed what my goals were.

• Danny_Ahmed

  @A_Lee @ErikaHarada I think you’re a little mistaken regarding some of the things you said. Historically speaking, the light skin Caucasian populations of European heritage were shorter comparably speaking. Only recently, as in under two centuries, did they gain the height they’re well-known for. During the peak of the Roman empire, the average height of males was roughly 5’5. It stayed that way for quite a long time, until maybe the time of Napoleon. Lincoln was one of the tallest presidents in history, I think 6’4 and he was considered as a exceptional giant during his time. Even when European explorers reached the new world, many native males were taller and more tone than them.

  The physique as more to do with nutrition, and genetics (mainly growth throughout the generations). As for East Asians, well, yes it is true that the ones closer to the Mongolian steepes, like the Northern Chinese and others in the area, did tend to be taller than the rest. On average, of course there were exceptions. Some males already exceeded 6 feet and were tone, according to accounts of Western explorers when they went there throughout the times.

  A lot of these stereotypical images and notions were very recent, like I said. Although the part about women wanting security remains true, whether it be for physique, wealth, education, etc.

• Danny_Ahmed

  @darkmoon @A_Lee @ErikaHarada The Russian-Chinese inter-relationships have been around for some time. Some of the Chinese from the area, already have a Russian grandparent or great-grandparent.

  People have been in inter-racial and inter-ethnic relations for quite a while. Especially for those who are closer in distance, it shouldn’t be a surprise. There’s quite a lot of Chinese-Indian multi-heritages and due to history, a lot of Arab-Chinese, Persian-Chinese and Portuguese-Chinese heritages. All of southeast Asia, like the Philippines and Malaysia, is like that.

• http://hubpages.com/profile/Pamela+N+Red PamelaNRed

  @darkmoon @ErikaHarada @A_Lee I’m older than most of you here. When I was in highschool I dated a Chinese guy and we were pretty serious. His parents didn’t approve and sent him to college in California.

  Now days I see more and more of these couples so I think many parents, especially if they have been here a while, are more open to these relationships.

• http://www.merchantsmirror.com darkmoon

  @Danny_Ahmed @A_Lee @ErikaHarada Danny, I hate to tell you this, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I’m the tallest out of all of my family at six feet… is… due.. to… McDonald’s. I’m going with the cow hormones they pump into burger meat, and I’m sticking with it.

• Danny_Ahmed

  @darkmoon @A_Lee @ErikaHarada lol, my cousin is like that, the tallest one and 6 ft, or close to 6 ft. He ate a lot of meat as well. I ate a lot of meat, but I expanded horizontally instead.

• David06

  @A_Lee I would still call it inflexible because you can still maintain your culture if you marry out. This whol racial/cultural purity thing reminds of what went on during the last century. The world is not going to end if you marry out. If you think that then you’re probably listening to the chatter.

• SungKim

  Thankfully we’ve also met many supporters that are genuinely happy for us!

• Ed

  @David06 @A_Lee “…you can still maintain your culture if you marry out”
  I agree with this statement to a certain extent. I’m all for interracial relationships (the majority of mine and my current one is interracial) however, one needs to assess why they are dating interracially. Too often these unions are developed out of a strong racial component rather than the “my soul mate just happens to be another race” statement (as many falsely claim).

  This sounds a bit Miss Universe, but if you can teach people to eliminate race all together from their criteria in finding romance you would see some amazing things happen. As someone who has dated the full rainbow of women I find it easy to do so. I certainly have personality preferences, a minimum level of intelligence and a body type that I find attractive, but none of these are race specific and have, in fact, found them in abundance in women of all races.

  The whole racial purity thing is a bit of joke. I remember reading somewhere that Hitler had a bit of Jewish in his family tree and that he was well aware of this “disgrace” as he likely thought. The genocide he orchestrated was believed to be a combination of his psychosis, narcissism and manifestation of his self-hate. Who knows. So even the deity of racial purity wasn’t racially pure himself.

• http://hubpages.com/profile/Pamela+N+Red PamelaNRed

  @Ed @David06 @A_Lee Why a person is dating a particular race is very important. There are definitely some do’s and don’ts when dating people of other cultures.

  I wrote an article on this not long a go if anyone wants to read:

  http://hubpages.com/hub/Interracial-Relationships-Dos-and-Donts

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  @Ed @David06 @A_Lee Yep! I so agree with everything you said.

• SungKim

  @A_Lee They may not be racist, but they sure are disrespectful of their son’s decisions and to his fiance…

• SungKim

  @mike_le I’m not sure how your points are any different from the writer’s points:

  Writer says, “…Purely a preference thing and who am I to judge whom they choose to love, care about…”

  You say, “…Dating is a personal choice. People shouldn’t be judged as individuals based on their personal dating choices…”

  It sounds like you guys are trying to say the same thing. No?

• SungKim

  @min My girlfriend and I deal with quite a few Korean nationalists who say not so pleasant things about diluting the blood line. One guy in particular likes to talk about how white women are devils… because one of them broke his heart… sigh… you should go check out some of these comments on my girfriend’s video blog: http://www.youtube.com/user/EmIlY72912#p/u

• David06

  @Ed @David06 @A_Lee Well, you know that people do have preferences and those preferences helps us to choose the best person for us. If we didn’t have any sort of preference than there’d be some really bizarro match-ups or no match ups at all. So if some one has a preference for a certain race then it’s their preference. It’s not really anyone else’s business. This whole thing of eliminating the attraction factor doesn’t really help. It just shows that people still have a little bit of a problem with interracial dating. As for the culture comment, you can learn from that person since you are dating or married to that person.

• http://thylacine.livejournal.com/ ErikaHarada

  @David06 @Ed @A_Lee IMO racial “preferences” are nobody’s business, but at the same time, I think it’s important for folks to see why such preferences occur and whether or not it’s based upon stereotypes.

• Danny_Ahmed

  Well, there is one serious aspect I can think of when considering any inter-cultural relationships. Some Asian families believe that other than carrying the family name for sons, also believe strongly in people keeping their graves clean and burning incense or other items for them. There are Asian Christians I know of who won’t do anything like that, so it can become a religious factor. Some non-Asians who marry into the family might be willing to keep those traditions, but overall it’s a big if due to the factor I stated. For anyone involved in this type of relationship, this really is something you all have to consider and deal with eventually. That is if anyone’s family is like this. Relationships are not always 100% personal, even though in the end of the day they are.

  Along with that tradition, there are some superstitions people might have to be aware of. The thing about many Asian cultures is that they’re never all the same or organized into a religion. Each family might have different customs. There’s a lot of families where some customs are reserved for the women, especially the wives of sons or mothers of kids.

  There is a show I know of in Taiwan, where it’s kind of similar to the ones they have Korea and Vietnam, where they have foreign people explain their life experiences living there. The only difference is that the Taiwanese version involves married couples (both foreign men and women who married into Taiwanese partners) who have been there for some time, like decades, and pretty much gave birth and raised their kids there. Almost everyone of them, include the most devout Christian person, has in some way or another accepted and partake in some of the local’s traditions.

  It is really hard in such a relationships if people don’t compromise to a certain degree, and overtime the non-Asian partners will eventually tolerate or be influence by some traditions if the relationship is going strong.

• Ed

  @David06 @Ed @A_Lee “…those preferences helps us to choose the best person for us”
  How is this case when defined in the context of race? How does one magically know that the best person for them is going to be white, black or asian? I’m not sure exactly who your responding to or what your trying to say since no where in my original post did I say to eliminate preference or attraction. I do however say to eliminate racial preference. And how does “eliminating the attraction factor” as you put it equate to showing that “people still have a little bit of a problem with interracial dating”. Please don’t respond as I think you’ll probably confuse me more.

• Ed

  @ErikaHarada @David06 @A_Lee I agree ultimately it’s a personal decision but I don’t believe anyone on this thread is advocating state enforced, racially pure dating policies. No one is argueing with ones right to decide who they date or marry. What I ask is that people use a little bit of self reflection.

  People need to accept that their “choices” are the result of experiences and influences that are often biased and negative. An Asian person does not naturally find Caucasian features more attractive than Asian features nor vice versa. This behavior is taught. In fact, studies have shown that babies (yes those wonderful creatures who have not been tainted by us) will gravitate to pictures of attractive people regardless of race. The results may have been more granular than this but I digress. There was a slight, but not entirely un-expected bias towards those images that show people of the same race. Studies in facial attractiveness (well those not conducted by nazis at least) have never discovered a correlation between race and the proportions and measurements that we instinctively determine as facially attractive. (Too lazy to find the references on these studies)

  This prevelant acceptance of racial bias is what really bugs me. I would expect if you were all civilized human beings and your toddler went up to you and said “You know mommy, I think white people are the best looking people in the world” you would be horrified regardless of what race you were to begin with. Why should this not be the case when adults say the same thing? How can you hope to instill any level of racial equality when you hold those biases yourself?