An Open Letter to Asian Cultures & Asian/Asian-American parents:
Re: Misogyny & Son-Bias
Why do you hate females? Why do you feel the need to selectively abort us when you discover you’re carrying a member of the XX? Why do you retain antiquated ideas of female worth (re: virginity)? Why do you make us feel less worthy and valuable then our male counterparts? And why do you then try to guilt-trip us and call us brainwashed when we become fully acculturate in American society and partake of all the opportunities western society affords us - including dating and eventually marrying the person we truly love regardless of race and ethnic background?
I can almost (but not completely) understand why, back in a more agrarian & rural time, boys were preferred. They didn’t move away when they got married. They retained the family name. They didn’t require large dowries. They took care of you in your twilight years. I get it. At one time boys were the next best thing to a nationalized social security system. But we’ve now entered the 21st century. We have things like telephones and cars - a married daughter is no longer out of reach. A person’s long-term success is less dependent on their ability to till the soil and more to do with how well they do in school, their communication skills, capacity for creative and unique ideas, and overall technical skill set. Recent college and graduate school graduation data shows that women are graduating at a higher rate then men and perform better overall. Women don’t even have to change their last name when they get married. Once a Lee, Chang or Singh…always a Lee, Chang, or Singh. And on top of all this, girls are less likely to commit crimes, get involved in gangs, and kill themselves while trying to mimic the newest X game move. Modern birth control even eliminates the risk of unplanned teen pregnancies.
So again, I want to know why you still don’t love us as much as you love the boys? Are we not cute enough? Do you just hate the color pink? Are you uncomfortable with the idea of trying to raise a daughter and instilling a sense of worth, power, and value in her? Do you just dislike the idea that women are actually creatures worthy of life and respect?
Please help me out here? My partner and I are contemplating bringing a baby into this world. We don’t have a gender preference - all we want is a healthy, happy baby, god willing. But if you articulate a real, reasonable reason for why we should strive for a boy, please let me know so that I can make an informed decision?
But until you can rationally tell me why boys are better than girls, can you please cut out the whole pre-natal sex selection thing. It’s really bumming me out and kinda makes me want to turn my back on my own culture.
Yours truly,
A proud, strong Asian-American female.
(If you want to know what inspired this, check out this NPR story about a Census data study examining male birth rates among Asian-Americans. Not surprisingly, there is evidence that Asian-American (meaning people in this country) are using prenatal screening technology to ensure the birth of boys.)
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tas wrote:
Asian American guys are still more likely to take care of their parents in old age (weather they need it or not). Sure you want to think this isn’t true and probably convinced yourself how good a daughter you will be when you get married but it usually manifests into nothing. Even more so if you are fully acculturate in American society and marry a man of different ethnicity. Girls like you convince yourself it won’t happen but it does and that is why even Asian American couples want Asian boy in America. Reaction of Asian American couples are based on Asian American’s action. Cause and effect but people like you like to play the victim and claim ignorance to what causes it.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 9:37 am | Permalink
tas wrote:
Life happens, and in the end Asian American guys take better care of their parents while Asian American girls promise to take better care of parents (even if Asian girls do better in life) and Asian American parents knows this while you’re still in denial.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 9:47 am | Permalink
So, Tas: You’re saying that because because Asian women marrying men of different ethnicity is a direct link to Asians choosing boys over girls?
Seriously?
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 9:47 am | Permalink
jozjozjoz wrote:
tas,
You sound bitter and angry. Those are some incredibly sweeping generalizations and accusations you’re making about Asian American women and I’m wondering what happened in your own life that makes you feel that AA women don’t take better care of their parents then AA men.
In personal my experience, I find that AA women bear the responsibilities of taking care of their parents more often than AA men, so I find your assertions puzzling.
Explain?
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 9:55 am | Permalink
Xxxtine wrote:
I’m with joz in that I find Tas’s sweeping statement truly puzzling. In my personal experience, I had to quit my job to take care of my mother. And this not only happened to me, but also to Elaine Lui from Lainey.com - who also quit her job to take care of her mom. I find more instances where sons don’t keep in touch with their parents, only to perhaps send a check when it’s needed. I highly doubt a son would reduce themselves to be their parents care giver - to help bathe them in their sickness or old age - or to clean up after them when things get messy. Sure you can ‘pay’ someone to do that - if that’s what you mean by taking care of them.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 10:21 am | Permalink
jun wrote:
Think about this:
just up until 25-35 years ago what was the status of women in THIS country??
ok now 25-35 years ago in ASIAN countries what was the status of women???
its easy to see why parents preferred boys over girls. They had more opportunities given to them in a sexist Asian world. In America, that world was sexist AND racist.
BUT
like Bo (a.k.a Strong Asian Woman) mentioned, this is the 21st century. We have black presidential candidates, we have women leaders being martyred in Pakistan, and female black tv hosts that are one more cable channel away from ruling the universe.
So S.A.W.s (Strong Asian Women and imma copyright that!) need to keep doing what they are doing. Because people like me (20 yrs old, next generation of parents) understand asian men can have success and S.A.W.s can have just as much success and even more.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 10:31 am | Permalink
jun wrote:
AND P.S.:
lets not let TAS generalize asian women but please lets not generalize asian men as a rebuttal…
because I love my mother as much as a girl can love her mother…
so please…
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 10:33 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
Jun brings up the precise point…why oh why, in this day and age, does anyone need to prefer one sex over another. Yes, society is still racist and sexist…but but but…aren’t WE the agents of change that can transform our cultures by engaging in meaningful conversation.
With that said, studies (http://www.hope.edu/academic/psychology/335/webrep2/caregive.html) have shown that women in America end up being the predominant care givers for their elder parents by a very large margin. All the studies focus on women regardless of race so I can’t give you an Asian-American only statistic but anecdotal evidence would indicate that this holds true for AAs. At least two of my girlfriends have taken time out of their careers to care for their elderly parents whilst none of my male friends have done the same. Ditto, I’ve known many AA women of my mother’s generation who became the primary caregiver to their very elderly parents. I know no AA male baby boomers who have played that role.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 11:12 am | Permalink
Xxxtine wrote:
In all fairness, I know a guy who quit his job on Bay St (the equivalent of working Wall Street but only in Toronto) to become a mechanic to help his father out at the garage. He thought of going back but hated the fact that he would be competing against kids who were 10 years younger. I don’t think anyone REALLY knows what it means to have to actually ‘take care’ of family until they’ve made a sacrifice that directly affects their future like that.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 11:53 am | Permalink
uRB4N wrote:
My parents are first generation Chinese Americans and they always wanted a boy and got him, me. They also told me that they said I hope I have a son instead of a daughter.
The thing is, they wanted a boy and want me to have a boy and it wasn’t because of any Asian-related reason but because they said that taking care of a girl, in general, was a pain compared to “easy street” like a boy such as not having to worry as much when I don’t come home until 3AM on a Friday.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 12:20 pm | Permalink
jun wrote:
^^^^^
wat the f*ck??? is this dude serious?
*pretends not to have read that comment*
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 12:42 pm | Permalink
uRB4N wrote:
Why does the topic of interracial dating amongst Asian women *always* have to be dragged to the forefront when you talk about this topic? All it does is antagonize a large segment of the population that you want to sympathize, Asian men.
Give me a break.
If you want my support, don’t bring up something that might piss me off. Do I go around telling firefighters that I usually find them to be racist drunks in their off time just as they arrive to put out the fire that’s about to burn down my house?
Look, you people already know that there is a huge gender rift between Asian men and women. You *also* know, though many men don’t want to admit it for fear of being dismissed as “a bitter Asian guy who can’t get any,” that this issue is a sore spot. Fixing one problem while substituting it for another isn’t the way to go.
Also, to the individuals who jumped all over Tas for conveying the retarded idea that “because Asian women date and marry out so much, that is why Asian parents want sons,” I find it equally retarded that no one dismissed the OP’s original message that conveyed the idea that the interracial dating rate was directly tied to Asian men.
Doesn’t that give a sweeping generalization of Asian men as being sexist and non-Asian men as being racial liberators?
For Christ’s sake, do you honestly think that if Asian men suddenly became non-sexist, the IR dating and marriage rate would disappear overnight? Surely not.
Look, I’ve only recently become interested in Asian America. I’m late to the game but the more I read about the general attitudes of both Asian American men *and* women, the stupidity makes me want to leave and go back to my whitewashed lifestyle.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 12:47 pm | Permalink
Efren wrote:
Well, I wonder if this means that with the impending gender imbalance between Asian men and women happening here and in China if that means that more of these Asian men will date each other?
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 12:55 pm | Permalink
Bo wrote:
I fail to see how I tied the interracial dating rate to Asian men. This was an open letter to Asian cultures and parents generally. Plus, it is my opinion that the harsh reaction a lot of Asian women receive when they date outside of their race IS an extension of old, chauvanistic, misogynistic attitudes within the Asian community about what an Asian woman should and should not do. It IS my belief (don’t try to apply my belief to other Asian women) that when Asian women date outside of their race, some (not all) Asian men are unable to deal with it b/c of the cultural norm that treats boys as superior beings to girls.
The entire interracial dating topic infurirates me b/c the language (some) asian men use when speaking about women. The language indicates that the aggressively angry asian men still consciously or unconsciously see asian women as posessions - and as possessions how dare the Asian women do something that the men don’t deem as acceptable.
BTW, I find it intriguing that several men decided to jump on one inferred idea within a post about fricking selective abortions! Hey, why isn’t any shocked or appalled about the fact that americanized Asians are still screening their fetuses and selectively choosing to abort them if they are female? This is happening in America - not China or India.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 1:12 pm | Permalink
jun wrote:
dear uRB4N,
do u know what im tired of??? This thing about the “a huge gender rift between Asian men and women” as you put. You wanna know the truth??? ITS A MYTH. A myth that American media has created. What is there to admit? its not true. You know what is true? Asian women may idolize certain men. CORRECTION. Women in GENERAL idolize certain men. And those men usually posses a extraordinary amount of good looks, money, and talent. And those men are usually in Hollywood, the music industry, and Sports WHERE Asian men receive high amounts of racial prejudice and non-acceptance.
and its too bad that the comments have veered off its course when we should be highlighting the strength of asian women…
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 1:22 pm | Permalink
Ben wrote:
It’s been a slow day at work so I had some time to poke around the Interweb regarding this topic. What I’ve found interesting include:
From this page: http://www.in-gender.com/XYU/Gender-Preference/
Gallup poll taken yearly since 1941 asking Americans if they were to have only one child, what sex would they prefer:
In 1941: 38% boy, 24% girl, 38% no opinion
In 2003: 38% boy, 28% girl, 34% no opinion
However, if you look at the responses by sex:
Male: 48% boy, 19% girl, 33% no opinion
Female: 30% boy, 35% girl, 35% no opinion
So, Americans, regardless of race, prefer boys. Moreso with men. Surprise surprise. As for the study that this post is referring to, I don’t think it means that Asian-Americans hate baby girls (since the study seems to be focused on families that already have 2 girls), it’s just that they still really, REALLY want that one boy. And have less qualms about how to get that one boy, especially if it’s already the third time around. I would think there’s economics involved now too since past a certain point you’re going to have trouble raising all these kids.
Also ran across this article on the skewed boy/girl ratio when it comes to adoptions:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093899/
Maybe an open letter to adoptive parents asking why they hate males should be in order too.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 1:48 pm | Permalink
sc wrote:
Below only applies if your parents expect welfare from you when they are old.
It’s all about the $$. My mom and friends feel that since boys still make more money in US society today and still control the purse string in most families, that it will be much easier to provide care/$$ to the boys parents as a 1st priority.
Of course not all Asian women are strong like Bo so some will definitely have trouble securing welfare for their parents since the boys will need to do the same for their parents first. This gets worse if they marry non Asian as they may not believe in welfare for parents at all. So the safest bet according to mom is to have a boy, but if you have a girl at least you’ll get good care as long as they still have $$.
I definitely have seen many cases where the sons are treated like ATM machines, (expect to provide parents living expenses from few hundred $$ to thousand of $$ a month) whereas anything from the girls is gravy. If $$ from the son is not provided than the laundry list guilt trip begins: We came to America to give you a better life, fed you, gave a good home, paid for your first car, paid for your college, gave you a down payment on your first home, on and on. Then they close you with how selfish can you be we won’t around that much longer, look at what we had to sacrifice for YOU.
So until future generations drop this idea of social welfare or pay and household equality is the norm in America boys will continue to be preferred for recent immigrant parents.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 2:59 pm | Permalink
Julie wrote:
Bo, thank you for this post. I’m sick and tired of Asian-Americans downplaying the role sexism plays in our culture(s) or outright pretending that it doesn’t exist. I grew up in middle class Southern California, NOT rural China, yet I saw the devastating effect Asian parents’ gender preferences had on their daughters all around me, both among my peers when I was a kid and then among the girls I met working at a university. It’s not always as intentional as in the case of gender selection via petri dish, but when I see a pair of fraternal twins, a brother and a sister, one of which gets a car and a computer for college while the other gets nothing, I can’t help but wonder whether the pain being inflicted is intentional.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 3:06 pm | Permalink
Brian wrote:
How did interracial dating creep into this conversation?
Well… I’m an only child, and not a day goes by my parents don’t wish they had a daughter. And besides; they’ve always wanted a white son in law. BADA CHING!
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 4:29 pm | Permalink
tas wrote:
Ernie – NO, don’t be retarded!
Jozjozjoz – In my personal experience, I find AA men take better care of their parents while AA women just claim to take better care of their parent. My Fiancé is white and she is taking courses in Korean (not actual courses but Rosetta stone CDs) and learning to cook Korean with my mom. I’ve never met an AA women who is married to an non AA men that actually lives with their parents and take care of them while the opposite case is more prevalent.
Xxxtine – you can come up with millions of personal reason why my statement is wrong but it’s only based on your limited interaction and not based on the actual consensus. Just like how you find my statement puzzling, I find your statements absurd.
Jun – If you think Asian men have it easier in THIS country then Asian women you are sorely mistaken. Asian women are afforded more opportunities then Asian men; they are more accepted in American cultural. Asian women are so accepted in America, Race doesn’t play a role while when it comes to Asian men, RACE ALWAYS play a role.
BO – Again you only list thing based on your limited experience. Your blinded prejudice and reverse sexism is apparent. You seem to have a lot of self hate and guilt which you manifest into these sexist / prejudice posts (solely based on your limited knowledge).
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 5:55 pm | Permalink
Bo wrote:
Yeah, that’s it. I just hate myself. And I hate men and I’m a complete racist. That’s why I work as a corporate diversity officer and spend every working day trying to create positive cultural change in corporate America so that women, minorities, people with disabilities, LGBT, and other marginalized communities have a better chance of exceling and achieving success in whatever career they pursue. Yeah, I do this work b/c I HATE myself. And yeah, I hate myself that’s why I train for endurance races and teach yoga and am in a loving, committed relationship with a man that respects me and treats me with dignity. Yeah, and only a person that really feels guilty would serve on a non-profit board in a Brooklyn based children’s art organization. Yeah, all of these demonstrate the behaviors of a person that’s seething with self-hate and guilt. Now, I’m not listing all of my credentials to boost but instead to outline that I’m a very self-actualized and contented person. You may think I’m a seething pool of self-hate but trust me, I’m not. The furthest thing from it. I would gain nothing by baselessly calling out individuals. BUT I’m not going to be intimidated by a little name calling and stop expressing my opinions about what I believe are serious social injustices in the Asian and Asian-American community.
The Asian community IS partriarchial and mysoginistic. It does treat women and girls as second class citizens. It’s not something that should or can be ignored. And yeah, I’m going to continue to call out the Asian community until I feel like progress has been made. Trust me, I’m just as critical with White-America as I am with Asian-America. Critical thinking and discourse is NOT an indication of self-loathing. It is the foundation for change and progress. Condemning and name calling people is not a productive means to promote change. Discourse is. I wasn’t name calling in my post. I was simply voicing a lot of the pain Asian-American women deal with on a consistent basis. Asian women want to be proud of our community, but when we hear about selective selection sometimes it’s hard to defend it.
tas, you can continue to try to intimidate through name calling but it ain’t gonna work.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 7:18 pm | Permalink
tas wrote:
Sounds like another “I can’t be a racist because I have black friends” rant. I hope you’re smart enough to know the actual meaning behind the quote and apply it to your situation. You obviously had a prejudicial perception on how the Asian community is and sympathize with AA women while showing no sympathy for what AA men go through and have no remorse in pigeonholing AA men into stereotypes while praising AA women. The same mentality you have is the reason why Asian girls view white men as their savior and judge white men to be more “liberal” then Asian men even before getting to know them.
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 7:55 pm | Permalink
jun wrote:
hey tas,
maybe its been ur experience as a Korean Male (im assuming correctly i hope) that Asian girls have looked to the “white man” as their savior. I dont know how old u are but I am 19 years old going on 20 this August. I also have hundreds of asian friends who are in their undergrad years going to school throughout the east coast in Boston, NYC, Philly, Connecticut, Maryland, Virgina, Florida and Georgia. And all you have is my word but in all honesty I can truly say that the idea of “asian girls looking up to white men as their savior” philosophy does not exist AT ALL. In my generation “asian pride” has grown so much that asians who date outside their race are unjustly looked down upon.
Asian males need to stop it with this “white man stealing our women” bullshit… its pathetic…
Posted on 03-Apr-08 at 9:56 pm | Permalink
uRB4N wrote:
Not sure why you’re even bother responding to Tas since only about 10% of what he says is correct while the other 90% is obviously wrong.
At any rate, I’ll take a bit to put my thoughts together before I respond with my own viewpoints regarding Asian sexism as well as the IR rate of Asian American women.
However, I must stress that my post can be the most thought-out, rational, and logical viewpoint and it’ll still be dismissed ad Ad nauseam. First, it seems that there is very little listening going on which is why this problem hasn’t made any significant headway in the past few years. Second, it seems that you have no counterargument at all on this website. It seems that all the posters are friends and are just comprised of “yes” men and women who embrace the false notion of “colorblindness” and how it’s a solution to everything. Third, all criticism, if any, is drowned out by condescending comments.
All I’ll say is this for now. Bo (OP) seems far too concerned with herself and her demographic that she spends little or no time to observe the situation from another viewpoint. While I do acknowledge the troublesome issue of sexism in Asia and Asian America, I also want to point out that not only do men of all races treat their women as property but women also do the same. Black women do it constantly. I’ve known several Asian women that get extremely angry when they see a great, good looking, well-put-together, Asian man dating a non-Asian woman.
Oddly enough, an Asian women pointed out to me that Asian women who date and marry white men are inadvertently contributing to the emasculation stereotype of Asian men. That’s why it’s even more troublesome. I think Akrapti (sp?) even managed to entertain that idea in one of her posts which is very commendable. It’s the people that think that the issue is completely harmless who are being very naive.
Whatever happens to Asian women affects Asian men. Whatever happens to Asian men affects Asian women. Now, if you want Asian men to be more receptive to listening to your issues, perhaps you should be more receptive in listening to them on their issues. Right now, no one wants to listen to each other at all.
Jun, no offense but you may be smart at 20 but you haven’t even experience a small slice of how the world operates. I’m in my late 20s, worked 3 jobs in totally different fields (Human Resources, IT, now Finance), have traveled extensively, and experienced life in many parts of the world and America. Even I am still learning about how the world and society operates. Trust me, you haven’t even gotten close to that yet.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 5:15 am | Permalink
uRB4N wrote:
Jun, might I point out that you already started down that road already by bringing up the point of Asian men being bitter without even actively attacking his points.
I think Asian Americans need to start up an internet meme like Godwin’s Law where the longer a conversation drags on, the chances of referencing Hitler or the Nazis approaches one. Whenever you want to kill a conversation regarding Asian America, just bring up “uRB4N’s Law.”
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 5:20 am | Permalink
tas wrote:
I have no problem with interracial relationship but do I have problem with girls like BO who justify it by stereotyping Asians. Like her quote “The Asian community IS patriarchal and misogynistic. It does treat women and girls as second class citizens.” Bo shouldn’t blame ALL Asian for how messed up her family treated her because it doesn’t apply to all, just because Asian men in her life are such loser she should stereotype all Asians.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 5:24 am | Permalink
William Lee wrote:
Just one small clarification– you mentioned:
“there is evidence that Asian-American (meaning people in this country) are using prenatal screening technology to ensure the birth of boys.)”
However, the article on NPR indicates that this is only the case for families that already have daughters. It’s the headline that is deceiving, because the headline implies exactly what you said.
Am I wrong?
-William
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 6:42 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
tas, this is not a flame war and I don’t see what you plan to accomplish by demeaning me and my family. It’s one thing to call me an idiot it’s another thing to drag by family into this.
You’re name calling is baseless, childish, and devoid of reason. You don’t know how I was raised and the circumstances. I am an outspoken, proud, strong Asian woman b/c my family raised me right. I was blessed with a family, and more importantly a father who did not buy into all the misogynistic bs that a lot of the Asian culture puts on women. My family encouraged liberal discourse, empowerment, and above all respect.
I would have respect for you if you challenged my ideas instead of resorting to baseless attacts on my family and my character. The purpose of my post was to put a voice to a component of the Asian culture that in ugly and unfortunately not that infrequently voiced. You can go ahead and believe that Asian society is hunky dorey and fine but you know what, as an Asian woman I have a different perspective. My views on Asian society are partially based on my experience and partially based on what I’ve observed in the community. Girls are treated different - I’m not saying that every Asian is misogynistic but I AM saying that misogyny and violence against women is an unfortunate component of Asian society. And this needs to change. One of the reasons why my family immigrated to the US is b/c my parents realized that opportunities would be limited for their daughters (4 in total) if they remained in Korea. They knew that America, with its slightly more progressive views on women, would give their daughters a better chance at success…and you know what, they were right.
Have you ever heard the saying “priviledge is invisible to those who possess it.” White people don’t realize how priviledged they are in America and ditto for Asian men in Asian society. If female infanticide is not a demonstration of a misogynistic culture, I don’t know what is. There are whole scholary papers and books examining the prevelance of domestic violence in the Asian-American community.
I respect all men who afford me the same respect. I do not, however, respect individuals who cling to old world gender roles. Like I said in my post, we live in the 21st century. No one should be able to justify why it’s ok to use selective screening to pre-determine the gender of their child. (BTW, I don’t want this to dissolve into some crazy pro-choice/anti-choice discussion) No woman should feel pressure to have to resort to hymen restoration to get married. No girl should be made to feel less loved and valued then her brother.
And finally, no one should have the right to accuse Asian women of brainwashing, called a traitor, or insulted b/c they have made the choice to be in a relationship with someone outside of their own race. Everytime I hear someone/anyone, be they female or male, make such assertions, I realize I’m talking to a misogynistic, bigoted person.
Violence against women can come in many forms - verbal, psychological, and physical. Belittling women simply b/c of who they love is a form of verbal violence against women that is sickening. I’m not going to stop talking about it until I get a sense that the tides have changed.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 6:57 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
BTW, Jun, thanks for your perspective on the attitudes of the next generation of Asian-American youth. It’s refreshing to see that there IS progress.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 7:09 am | Permalink
Jun wrote:
hey uRB4N,
u dropped a lot of knowledge and its appreciated. And no offense taken, because actually you are right. BUT as a 19 year old (im not even 20 yet) wat can i stand on if I dont stand on my own beliefs and experiences no matter how limited they may be? And I lived in Kentucky (because my father was stationed at Fort Knox), Florida, New York City, and Philly. And just generalizing New York City is a farce, because there are mammoth cultural differences from Manhatten to Flushing, Queens, and from South Bronx to Crown Heights, Brooklyn where I live and the clostest asians u will find are behind bullet prood plexi-glass in Chinese food places. I’ve worked in high end restaurants (Park Luncheonette where scenes of THE DEPARTED were flimed) and lower class diners in North Philly. I’ve worked architecture internships and dry cleaners. And I too am still finding out new nuances of how this world works AND much like you I did not get into this “ASIAN AMERICAN” thing recently; not until senoir year of high school. But those are in no way, excuses for me to not speak out or for you to speak out. And again sorry, but when people mention that stupid “asian women hate asian men” idiocracy its in my nature to lash out because I know its NOT true BECAUSE of my expeirence.
and as for that “uRB4N law” idea, LOL, no comment,,,,
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 8:34 am | Permalink
tas wrote:
You have your view of Asian society as being misogynistic based on what you’ve read and experience but you discredit other Asians for viewing Asian women as brainwashed traitors based on their experience. You can’t have it both ways. There are reasons why Asian women are seen as traitors and Asian men as being misogynist, both traits are misleading to generalize but your attempt show validity in one argument while neglecting the existence of the other is poor judgment on your part. There as many sexist Asian men as well as many Sellout Asian girls and it’s the mentality of Sellout Asian girls who choose to see only one side of the story and claim the insecurity of Asian men for having such views while they feel they are so liberated. It’s denial, pure and simple. Violence against Asian women comes in many form and the brainwashed Asian girls come in many forms, in the end they both exist and it wrong to point only one side.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 9:35 am | Permalink
uRB4N wrote:
Nice. I could have just summed up your entire post into:
“You have your experiences and I have mine.”
Never once did I say “Asian women hate Asian men.” What I *did* say was that there is a rift between the two groups in being able to chat about their differences and concerns.
The fact that this conversation is still taking place after so long is proof of that. To be honest, you just said a whole lot of nothing. While age doesn’t dictate how smart someone is, it does allow them to experience more.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 9:54 am | Permalink
uRB4N wrote:
All I’m asking is for people to view it on the other side and also not to just take “yes” men/women’s comments as gospel.
Case in point, Asian women have said “I know Asian men that don’t care” and used it as a weapon to destroy other Asian men who do care?
Does that sound familiar?
“My Asian friend doesn’t find the joke racist? Why do you?
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 10:00 am | Permalink
jun wrote:
I get mad at “asian women hating asian men” as a general statement when said… not that you said it or believed it. And it is never enough to say “you have your experience and i have mines”… just generalizing it like takes away from all your unique endeavors as well as mine. You didnt have to say u worked in Human Resources, IT, now Finance… but u did and that gave u more credibility to your points. And the only reason im commenting back and furthering this conversation is because while theres nothing to gain from arguing with a fool, you can always learn something when u argue with intelligent people. but even with that said ill stop because in no way am i smart enough to continue this, soooo..
wat is it you said? qoute “uRB4N’s Law” to end conversations??
=)
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 10:36 am | Permalink
Grace Chu wrote:
I’m puzzled. Whatever happened to “Akrypti’s Law”? The one that states that the only posts on 8A that get comments are the ones about sex?
This thread is a milestone in that regard. (Admittedly, someone tried to slip interracial dating into this thread, but that didn’t catch on, so it doesn’t count.) Congrats, Bo!
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 10:53 am | Permalink
Anita wrote:
I am a little late to this thread, but wanted to add to the adoption thing. As an adoptive mother and having met many adoptive parents during and after our adoption process, I do have some theories about why most people want to adopt girls. I briefly skimmed the article that Ben posted and it also has the same theories, so I won’t go into them. But one thing that seems to shock everyone is that in Taiwan, the majority of babies adopted domestically are girls. It’s usually the boys that are left over and then made available for international adoption. It seems counterintuitive when you know about the Asian cultural preference for boys.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
Concerned wrote:
“Asian Cultures & Asian/Asian-American parents” ? Whoa. Both vague and specific. Who are you really speaking to? Your own parents? “Makes me want to turn my back on my own culture.” What culture would that be? I think it’s quite presumptuous to speak of a culture of being misogynist.
Posted on 04-Apr-08 at 11:04 pm | Permalink
Bo wrote:
Of course I’m speaking from my own perspective! People, this is an opinion post.
Disqualifying my perspective just b/c other cultures are rooted in misogyny and female violence doesn’t lessen the guilt of Asian cultures. Sure asian people don’t engage in female genital mutilation or force it’s women to wear burkas but it does engage in a lot of inequities big and small. I’ve done a lot of research in Asia (for Asian companies) to assess corporate cultures and some of the stuff I’ve heard is horrifying. I was once being recruited by a Korean company to work in their Seoul office. When I brought up the issue of unfair treatment of women, this was the reps response. “Oh, don’t worry. They (men) won’t treat you bad. They know that you’re American and they can’t treat you that way. ” Implying that the men think it’s okay to treat Korean-raised women poorly but not American-raised women.
What I think is humorous is that everything thinks somehow my childhood or my parents or negative experiences with men have something to do with my perspectives. My parents must have damaged me forever and ever. Why is being a feminist an automatic indication of poor upbringing? Why are so many people intimidated by a woman with strong opinions and a strong voice? Why do you feel the need to personally attack me rather than the ideas I have. In my experience, the use of personal attack are usually a last resort tactic when all original ideas have evaporated.
Posted on 05-Apr-08 at 5:11 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
And for those individuals attaking Jun just b/c of his youth. Wow! Ageism at its best. I’ve met a lot of people in their 40s and 50s who could use a dose of Jun’s wisdom. Age is absolutely no indication of intelligence or experience. A 40 year old who has lived his/her whole life in a small town in Iowa may have far less knowledge than a 20 year old who grew up in NYC and lived among a diverse palette of individuals. The only thing advanced age can signal is a slower metabolism and an increased risk for cardiovascular disease.
Posted on 05-Apr-08 at 5:13 am | Permalink
tas wrote:
It’s already been pointed out that your initial post was base on skewed facts, I’m sure you were jumping for joy to use contents out of context just so you can point out how Asian men are misogynistic.
My last post did not attack you personally but you did manage to avoid all my points while going back to a null point. Love your tactics. Here is an actual personal attack,
you are another brainwashed sellout who grew up reading Amy Tan book believing Asian men are Evil and White men are your savior. Your favorite movie growing up was Breakfast at Tiffany’s and sixteen candles and had such hatred for being associated with Asian men (Donger). Then you go to college and meet more brainwashed girls with the same upbringing and form a bond of FemaNazi Asian girls who spreads skewed facts about Asian men and anyone who disagreed was insecure and jealous. You think Asian men are bound by tradition and sexist while Asian women are liberated.
Posted on 05-Apr-08 at 6:56 am | Permalink
Bo wrote:
I am so, so, so sorry that your description above is what you think strong, outspoken, feminist Asian women are. So sorry.
Where in my post did I accuse Asian men? I was speaking to the larger Asian community - not singling out men. Asian women are just as guilty for perpetuating and maintaining an oppressive anti-woman ideology as men.
My post was aimed at Asian parents who unreasonably favor boys over girls - parents would imply females and males (in this case I’m not trying to exclude gay parents but I doubt gay parents would be in the same situation as straight couples.) Yeah, and I know that the study refers to third children - but honestly is that a reasonable excuse for selective termination? Just as inexcusable to me.
Hey, I think the Asian community has a lot of problems collectively (as does ever other ethnic community in this country) - overuse of physical discipline, psychological intimidation to pressure children to do things they do not want to, lack of political involvement, devaluation of professions that do not require an MD or Esq, etc… - and I know the Asian community has a lot of strengths - dedication & loyalty to family, a dogged work ethic. Is it so wrong to call out the community for something that I believe to be a serious, serious weakness?
Additionally, regardless of whether you believe the Asian community is misogynistic, the larger view of the community by outsiders is that it is. All this infighting and calling women traitors and brainwashed doesn’t help the cause. I challenge you to read through any of my posts and find a place where I directly call Asian men weak and/or passive. I would never demean men in that way. I DO critique and criticize the community and some of the more pervasive and insidious problems I see in it. Whatever you want to imply from my criticism is a reflection of your own experiences.
And uRB4N’s law totally work! Someone brought up Nazis!
Posted on 05-Apr-08 at 7:56 am | Permalink
Concerned wrote:
“Of course I’m speaking from my own perspective!” Straw-man argument and/or red herring. I never questioned your perspective. I just was curious if your own parents were misogynistic and therefore may have informed your opinion. That’s all.
“I’ve done a lot of research in Asia (for Asian companies) to assess corporate cultures” Appeal to authority. And, research in Asia, of Asian culture is very different thing from studying Asian American culture. You’d be wise to take some time and consider the implication of speaking of both cultures together. You’re addressing a very large group of people. Do you know a lot of nisei, sansei or yonsei families? Maybe it would surprise you that Asian America is diverse. The dominant hegemonic already demonizes Asians, and now we have a ’strong proud Asian American female’ doing it for them.
“My parents must have damaged me forever and ever. Why is being a feminist an automatic indication of poor upbringing?” I hope you’re answering a previous comment by someone else and not mine. Because I did not mean to insinuate this. I think it’s probably a sensitive issue and you may have over reacted. It’s been said that sarcasm is the resource of a weak mind. I wouldn’t sarcastically talk about parents damaging you, it kinda detracts from your ‘perspective’.
“the use of personal attack are usually a last resort tactic when all original ideas have evaporated.” Poisoning the well.
I am not questioning whether there has been or is a reputation formed around some Asian cultures of son biases or misogyny. But I am questioning why YOU don’t seem to understand how this is a dated and located argument that shows no concern for the diversity and range that Asian culture is around the world.
Posted on 05-Apr-08 at 8:25 am | Permalink
Concerned wrote:
“A 40 year old who has lived his/her whole life in a small town in Iowa may have far less knowledge than a 20 year old who grew up in NYC and lived among a diverse palette of individuals.”
You need to think carefully about what it is you’re thinking and from there think carefully about what you are writing.
Posted on 05-Apr-08 at 10:46 am | Permalink